On 28 August 2011 14:07, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
<joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Right, and that was what I reacted to. You don't need to develop any
muscle
memory. If you hit anywhere on the panel (except the indicators,
presently)
then the menus and the window buttons are shown. Hitting the top of
the
screen doesn't qualify as something you need muscle memory for since
it doesn't matter how far you move the mouse, as long as you move it
forward.
Hmm, maybe I'm not quite getting it. I'll have to wait until I have time and build a VM to check it out (most prob not for a week or so alas, got some deadlines looming).
My assumption is that if people are easily confused, then reducing
the number
of buttons and menus would reduce the chance of confusion. It also
makes it
much more comfortable to work with maximized windows, which is -- as
you
also point out -- becoming common, specially for less experienced
users.
Most prob. a fair comment. I suspect I'm biased because I have a very large monitor and very rarely work maximised, I think however that most inexperienced users would work maximised and so it is more likely to not be an issue for those users.
Why? Most people I know, haven't got any experience with type
writers. It's
not obvious to me that a ninety degree angle with a left arrow means
you
want a new line. It is more obvious that an up arrow means shift,
since you're
shifting from small to large characters, but it still isn't obvious.
Or what about
tab? Two arrows pointing to the left and right at a vertical bar?
The point,
obviously, is that you do need to learn some basic skills in order
to interact
with the computer and the system. Learning that you can expose extra
functionality by moving the pointer to the top of the screen isn't
very
advanced. I would say that learning to use the mouse buttons are
very much
more difficult. When do you double click? Why do you never double
click on
the right button? When do you click the middle button? That _is_
complicated
and that's something that's improved rather radically with the
indicators.
People really appreciate that.
I'll give you that point.. I'm used to dealing with the 'older generation'. Often we get a lot of people in factories who are in their 40's or 50's, but in reality they wouldn't be familiar with a typewriter purely because they wouldn't have ever used one other than what they have seen on tv (and the return arm of a old manual only vaguely correlates to the arrow as drawn on the enter key).
I think that is an excellent reason not to display extra buttons and
menus
at all times. How often do these people use the menus in the
browser?
If it isn't needed, don't show it. Microsofts ribbon interface does
the exact
opposite and I think it's a very bad idea in very many cases. In
some cases
it might be useful, but in most cases, I think it makes more sense
to hide
buttons that aren't needed.
Yup, ribbon only makes sense of something like word and similar. Wish MS would let others use it, would be handy on some apps I use.
«...is not comparing apples to apples...» A mobile phone is not the
same
as a desktop. You generally don't have large applications like
LibreOffice
or Blender running on it, with hundreds of menu options, etc. I'm
not really
that impressed by their interface, and I don't think it's just
because of it
that they're successful. They're masters of the media. For instance,
here
in Norway, there were three pads on the market before the Ipad were
made available. They were being called Ipad competitors a year
before
Ipad entered the market. That helps. It's not to say that Apples
software
isn't good. It is. But it is also more than a little overrated.
lol, I agree that it is overrated. However I also know that the interface for the iPad and iPhone is far easier for novices to pick up (based on personal observations). There is still learning to be performed, but its far simpler. I think Android is a lot more complex.
Based on HP's recent moves I'm presuming that tablets are having a bigger impact on the PC/laptop market than first expected (which shouldn't really be a surprise, why do people buy laptops now a days? mainly to surf the net or watch a movie, writing documents, doing graphics design, developing software is really in the minority now a days). As such I'm hoping to see unity on tablets. So comparing it to iOS is fair to a certain extent, but such an environment would want the hidden buttons.
Well. If you look at the subject of this thread, then it should
become
apparent that I wasn't expecting this. Even so, it was completely
apparent to me what had changed. It actually took a little while
before
I noticed that the buttons were not being displayed when I didn't
use
them. What I did notice, was that it had become much easier to see
the title of the page/window I was working in, and that is a real
improvement.
That sounds encouraging, as I said above, I think I should hold off making comments until I can actually observe the behaviour. Wish I could get a tablet to install ubuntu on and test with some people who I know are novices.
Many people have been arguing that
we shouldn't hide the window controls and menus because people
are used to the way things are from Windows. But that is a very weak
argument for many reason. All new users of Ubuntu should be made
very aware that Ubuntu is a different system. They'll discover that
many things are similar, but they shouldn't expect them to be,
because that will only cause confusion.
Agree totally with those sentiments. That is one thing I liked about Unity initially, it was the fact that it was finally going on it's own direction instead of following the lead from others. Innovation is fun :) Though I realise it is hard to be totally original.
I think the fear of change is
exaggerated, and in this case, it is unfounded. I don't know exactly
how I noticed that the buttons had been hided, but I suspect it
happened when they were displayed because I needed them. To
me, that is a sign of really good design.
Well I have tested this on some ... let's call them rather
inexperienced users. I was expecting some strong reactions, in
either direction, but I didn't get it. "ok". Some didn't even react
at all. "The panel shows either the title or the menus, since you
never need both at once". If you think about it, it's quite sensible
and not at all difficult to comprehend.
Sounds encouraging then!
Your presuming that I want things to be the same or to
limit ourselves, which is wrong. I have only argued that we
need to make it easy for people to a) learn and b) remember.
However this doesn't mean making the UI ugly, just usable and
intuitive. Personally I love the approach with Unity and I
like all the different ideas are being tried. But that doesn't
mean that every choice taken is a good choice.
Well. If it doesn't hurt the user experience, then as much as
possible should be discoverable. But since most people are going
to spend thousands of hours using their computers, I think it is
better to show these things once and then optimize personal
efficiency and comfort. We once learned how to shave, right?
It wasn't strictly necessary. You would've figured it out by trial
and error, but it didn't take long to show it once and it probably
saved you from a few cuts and itches. And since then, I'm sure
you've shaved a couple of times without feeling any need of a
reminder how to do it.
And shaving is far less common than interacting with a window.
I expect to receive a few points for that analogy :)
lol, interesting analogy, two points for that! :)