desktop-packages team mailing list archive

Thread
Date

[Bug 578045] Re: Upgrading packaged Ubuntu application unreasonably involves upgrading entire OS

To: desktop-packages@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:20:49 -0000
Reply-to: Bug 578045 <578045@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

** Description changed:

- It's hard to imagine that this could be true, but it is easier to
- upgrade to the newest stable versions of popular free and open source
- software (referred to from here on as FOSS) in proprietary operating
- systems, than it is to do so on Ubuntu.
+ It is easier to upgrade to the newest stable versions of most
+ applications -- even open source applications -- on a proprietary
+ operating system than it is on Ubuntu.

Two examples:

1. Wait for a new version of LibreOffice to be released.

What happens:
* <http://www.libreoffice.org/download/> offers downloadable versions for Windows, Mac OS X, Ubuntu and other systems.
* However, nothing in Ubuntu Software Center, Update Manager, or anywhere in the default system, allows you to install the newest version in a trusted way.

2. Wait for a new Hedgewars version to be released. (Or notice that you
are unable to play network games, because the server requires a client
version newer than the one packaged in Ubuntu.)

What happens:
* <http://hedgewars.org/download.html> links to an Ubuntu package, but this requires setting up an untrusted "Playdeb" channel.
* On Mac OS X, the new version is advertised by a badge on the App Store icon, and can be installed in a couple of clicks.
* However, nothing in Ubuntu Software Center, Update Manager, or anywhere in the default system, allows you to install the newest version in a trusted way.

Users learn that they shouldn't download from outside trusted
repositories or websites as a rule, and it's very true that choosing to
install applications from outside trusted places poses a risk to the
system. PPAs often provide unstable, development releases which may not
run well on the system they're installed on, or pose security risks to
the system. GetDeb.net is a reasonably trustable source for now, but a
new user may not know about it, and it still may not provide the same
level of trust that an Ubuntu sanctioned source would to the user. But
if nothing else, GetDeb could be configured as a source for new, stable
yet unsupported versions of software and be advertised as such somewhere
in the default Ubuntu install.

What should happen:
* On running Ubuntu Software Center or Update Manager, you should be told that you have the option to replace the current version with a newer version.

WHY THIS SHOULD HAPPEN:

A rolling release, or semi-rolling release system has been suggested
in the past and almost always is shot down for various reasons. I don't
believe the way I'm suggesting this would constitute a rolling release
system, and I don't think it would require any large change to the way
things are done now. Ultimately, it would be up to the devs to implement
this idea in whatever way they wished if they so chose, but here's why I
think the USC should provide the ability to upgrade software easily and
safely:

-Software development stops for no operating system, and Windows
users are used to having the newest versions of software as soon as, or
soon after they come out. Being able to upgrade easily to newer versions
of software, is a rather reasonable expectation of a modern, mainstream
operating system.

-Resources wouldn't be stretched too thin; software would be upgraded
to their newest stable version under the stipulation that regardless of
their former status of support (main or universe), they may or will be
completely unsupported after upgrade. It's better than or at least equal
to the alternative; using potentially malicious or unstable untrusted
software from unofficial sources.

-Doesn't it seem wrong that it's easier to have the newest versions
of FOSS software on proprietary operating systems than on a largely FOSS
one? Ubuntu should showcase the best and newest of what FOSS has to
offer, not so much or in a way that makes it look like a Debian-based
Fedora, but in a way that if the user wants it, he can get it easily.
Sure, you could reasonably argue that if the user cares so much about
new software, he/she could go to a distro like Fedora or a rolling
release distro, but that'd be kinda like Windows telling it's users that
if they want the newest version of say, Windows Media Player (bear with
me here xD) they have to upgrade their entire OS to an unstable
development release. Ubuntu should be able to offer new versions of
software easily, but it doesn't mean that all the core system libraries
and daemons have to be upgraded. Simply an option for (at least)
commonly used software.

------------

Latest progress:
* <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-backports-ui> (for software in the Ubuntu archive)
- * <http://voices.canonical.com/isd/?p=167> (for software not in the Ubuntu archive)
+ * <https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/> (for software not in the Ubuntu archive)
+
+ This bug will be marked as Fixed when at least 50% of Ubuntu
+ applications can be updated to a new version without upgrading the
+ operating system.

--
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Desktop
Packages, which is subscribed to software-center in Ubuntu.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/578045

Title:
Upgrading packaged Ubuntu application unreasonably involves upgrading
entire OS

Status in NULL Project:
Invalid
Status in Ubuntu Software Center:
Invalid
Status in “software-center” package in Ubuntu:
In Progress

Bug description:
It is easier to upgrade to the newest stable versions of most
applications -- even open source applications -- on a proprietary
operating system than it is on Ubuntu.

Two examples:

1. Wait for a new version of LibreOffice to be released.

2. Wait for a new Hedgewars version to be released. (Or notice that
you are unable to play network games, because the server requires a
client version newer than the one packaged in Ubuntu.)

Users learn that they shouldn't download from outside trusted
repositories or websites as a rule, and it's very true that choosing
to install applications from outside trusted places poses a risk to
the system. PPAs often provide unstable, development releases which
may not run well on the system they're installed on, or pose security
risks to the system. GetDeb.net is a reasonably trustable source for
now, but a new user may not know about it, and it still may not
provide the same level of trust that an Ubuntu sanctioned source would
to the user. But if nothing else, GetDeb could be configured as a
source for new, stable yet unsupported versions of software and be
advertised as such somewhere in the default Ubuntu install.

What should happen:
* On running Ubuntu Software Center or Update Manager, you should be told that you have the option to replace the current version with a newer version.

WHY THIS SHOULD HAPPEN:

A rolling release, or semi-rolling release system has been
suggested in the past and almost always is shot down for various
reasons. I don't believe the way I'm suggesting this would constitute
a rolling release system, and I don't think it would require any large
change to the way things are done now. Ultimately, it would be up to
the devs to implement this idea in whatever way they wished if they so
chose, but here's why I think the USC should provide the ability to
upgrade software easily and safely:

-Software development stops for no operating system, and Windows
users are used to having the newest versions of software as soon as,
or soon after they come out. Being able to upgrade easily to newer
versions of software, is a rather reasonable expectation of a modern,
mainstream operating system.

-Resources wouldn't be stretched too thin; software would be
upgraded to their newest stable version under the stipulation that
regardless of their former status of support (main or universe), they
may or will be completely unsupported after upgrade. It's better than
or at least equal to the alternative; using potentially malicious or
unstable untrusted software from unofficial sources.

-Doesn't it seem wrong that it's easier to have the newest versions
of FOSS software on proprietary operating systems than on a largely
FOSS one? Ubuntu should showcase the best and newest of what FOSS has
to offer, not so much or in a way that makes it look like a Debian-
based Fedora, but in a way that if the user wants it, he can get it
easily. Sure, you could reasonably argue that if the user cares so
much about new software, he/she could go to a distro like Fedora or a
rolling release distro, but that'd be kinda like Windows telling it's
users that if they want the newest version of say, Windows Media
Player (bear with me here xD) they have to upgrade their entire OS to
an unstable development release. Ubuntu should be able to offer new
versions of software easily, but it doesn't mean that all the core
system libraries and daemons have to be upgraded. Simply an option for
(at least) commonly used software.

------------

Latest progress:
* <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-backports-ui> (for software in the Ubuntu archive)
* <https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/> (for software not in the Ubuntu archive)

This bug will be marked as Fixed when at least 50% of Ubuntu
applications can be updated to a new version without upgrading the
operating system.

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/null/+bug/578045/+subscriptions