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Re: Invitation for a conference call - about CBHIS


Here it is.

best regards,
Ola Hodne Titlestad
University of Oslo

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Can someone please post the transcript of the chat.  Sorry I had to go
> early.
> Regards
> Bob
> 2009/5/25 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx>:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > We are planning to have a conference call for a discussion regarding the
> > design issues of community-based health information system. All
> interested
> > are invited - especially those with the idea of developing mother-child
> > system (team from Tanzania, Malawi and Vietna ).
> >
> > A tentative plan is
> >
> > Date: Tuesday, 26th May 2009
> > Time: 10:00 - 12:00
> > Agenda: Design Issues of CBHIS - requirement specification, time frame,
> > technology, coding layout,...... anyother you might have.
> >
> > I will host the conference call through skype. If there are better
> options
> > than skype including the hosting person/place/timing then you are most
> > welcome to suggest.
> >
> >
> > Thank you.
> > Abyot.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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[10:04:36 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added marlena483 ***
[10:04:37 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added Chau Thu Tran ***
[10:04:41 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added Ola Hodne Titlestad ***
[10:04:51 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added knutstar ***
[10:04:54 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added Lars Helge Øverland ***
[10:04:59 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added sunbiz ***
[10:05:05 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added Thuy VN ***
[10:05:35 AM] *** Conference call, duration 00:07 ***
[10:05:51 AM] *** Call ended ***
[10:06:04 AM] *** Conference call, duration 05:06 ***
[10:09:42 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added Bob Jolliffe ***
[10:11:09 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hello everybody.  sounds like a blizzard ...
[10:11:10 AM] *** Call ended ***
[10:12:47 AM] knutstar: we are chatting, right?
[10:12:51 AM] knutstar: not talking
[10:13:08 AM] Bob Jolliffe: I was talking ... for a minute
[10:13:11 AM] knutstar: ok...
[10:13:49 AM] Bob Jolliffe: now I've been dropped.  Dunno - can I reconnect or does abyot have to call me again?
[10:13:59 AM] knutstar: no idea
[10:14:04 AM] Abyot Asalefew: It is me who is hosting it.
[10:14:05 AM] knutstar: i prefer chat
[10:14:19 AM] knutstar: but up to you
[10:14:22 AM] Abyot Asalefew: because the voise is very noisy .. better to do it in chat
[10:14:31 AM] Bob Jolliffe: on the internet nobody knows you're a dog ...
[10:15:03 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added thanhnew2001 ***
[10:15:10 AM] knutstar: only the 3 of us here?
[10:15:30 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ya only 3 of us are active
[10:15:33 AM] thanhnew2001: don't know
[10:15:35 AM] Chau Thu Tran: so, we're chatting ??
[10:15:37 AM] knutstar: hi thanh
[10:15:44 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Hi Every body!!
[10:15:46 AM] thanhnew2001: hi Knut
[10:15:50 AM] Abyot Asalefew: can you see my message?
[10:15:52 AM] knutstar: yes
[10:16:06 AM] thanhnew2001: me too, see your msg
[10:16:13 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Bob?
[10:16:17 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hello
[10:16:37 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ya I got your message .. hope you also got mine
[10:16:57 AM] Bob Jolliffe: ola and lars?  Saptarshi?
[10:17:12 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Ola and Lars are here and online
[10:17:26 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hi
[10:17:28 AM] knutstar: sunny?
[10:17:29 AM] *** Chau Thu Tran added Tri VN ***
[10:17:33 AM] Abyot Asalefew: But saptarshi is not online
[10:17:34 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Hi everyone
[10:17:59 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: so we are missing Saptarshi, can anyone send him an sms?
[10:18:04 AM] Bob Jolliffe: lars is being the silent type ...
[10:18:14 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: yes, but he is sitting next to me...
[10:18:25 AM] knutstar: India?
[10:18:27 AM] knutstar: anyone?
[10:18:52 AM] knutstar: bharath, john, sunny, brajesh...
[10:18:55 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added estlinecarol ***
[10:19:03 AM] thanhnew2001: India has always had problem with internet connection and power
[10:19:05 AM] knutstar: pls also invite Jason
[10:19:07 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hopefully not a mixup with timezones.  I think sunny was online earlier.
[10:19:30 AM] Bob Jolliffe: what time is it there anyway?
[10:19:49 AM] Tri VN: 2PM
[10:19:56 AM] knutstar: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=176
[10:20:02 AM] thanhnew2001: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/results.html?query=oslo
[10:20:10 AM] Bob Jolliffe: ok.  thats civilized.
[10:20:11 AM] *** Tri VN added Hieu VN ***
[10:20:19 AM] thanhnew2001: yes ,this is excellent tool to know when is where
[10:20:21 AM] Lars Helge Øverland: im her
[10:20:22 AM] Lars Helge Øverland: e
[10:20:28 AM] knutstar: good
[10:21:18 AM] Bob Jolliffe: we always have timezone problems with oasis calls - participants from China, Germany, US, Brazil etc.  Everybody seems to change clocks on different days of the year.  'tis a nightmare.
[10:21:21 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: can we send Sunny an sms?
[10:21:44 AM] Bob Jolliffe: I don't have his number
[10:22:22 AM] knutstar:
[10:22:43 AM] knutstar: I can send bharath an sms
[10:24:35 AM] Tri VN: Suneel ? or Sunny
[10:24:39 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Knut, can you get skypeid for Jason Pickering
[10:24:41 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ?
[10:25:03 AM] knutstar: I have it, but he doesn't seem to be online
[10:25:08 AM] knutstar: just a sec
[10:26:16 AM] knutstar: jason.p.pickering
[10:27:45 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: OK, let me remind you of the agenda:
1) Requirements
3)Time frame
5)Coding layout
[10:28:58 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I'll try to chair this chat, and to keep some order I will pass the word around to all of you and let you write one by one, so that we avoid having many people writing at the same time. Does that sound like a plan?
[10:29:25 AM] knutstar: yes, but may be a bit slow
[10:29:41 AM] knutstar: still, let's trx
[10:29:43 AM] knutstar: y
[10:29:56 AM] Abyot Asalefew: could be. but that will be great to have order
[10:30:36 AM] Bob Jolliffe: you can say "pass" if you lke when its your turn ..
[10:30:44 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sure
[10:31:07 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: i'll come up with an order of participants now, I've got of you here
[10:31:51 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I suggest Abyot gets the final word within each topic on the agenda
[10:32:13 AM] Abyot Asalefew: agreed !
[10:32:39 AM] knutstar: guess that was the final word ;)
[10:33:00 AM] Bob Jolliffe: we can have time to respond to others as well?  before the "final word"?
[10:33:22 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ohh ya - knut. I always agree with ppl.
[10:33:35 AM] Marlen: hello everyone!! Marlen from Malawi here...planning to do some work on Patient Based sys for maternal health
[10:34:17 AM] estlinecarol: hi all, Caroline from Tanzania
[10:34:26 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Sure Bob, we can do many rounds for each topic,
[10:34:40 AM] Bob Jolliffe: not tto many :)
[10:35:50 AM] Hieu VN: Excuse me, please writting out full of word, don't too short (we shall not undertand). Thanks ! OVER
[10:36:43 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: we'll keep round 2-> short yes,,,
I'll use the skype order:
[10:36:48 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: anyone missing?
[10:37:01 AM] knutstar: welcome to our friends from Africa! As you se we are still in the startup phase
[10:37:43 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: actually our African friends are in our office in Oslo right now
[10:37:55 AM] thanhnew2001: hahaa
[10:37:56 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and we expect Jørn to arrive soon as well
[10:38:15 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Abyot is on the phone with Sunny now, so things are moving
[10:39:00 AM] *** Abyot Asalefew added Sam VN ***
[10:39:36 AM] Abyot Asalefew: hi ! saptarshi are you in now?
[10:39:38 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: ok, so I'll add Sam to the list after Tri
[10:39:44 AM] Bob Jolliffe: on requirements I think I can pass the baton to those who know better.  Just reinforce Ola's comment on the mail regarding avoiding overlap with openmrs.  and maintaining compatibility/interoperability where possible.
[10:39:51 AM] Bob Jolliffe: pass
[10:39:56 AM] sunbiz: yes... mixup with the timezones
[10:40:03 AM] sunbiz: sorry... for getting in late
[10:40:16 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Tran, any commens on requirements?
[10:40:17 AM] Abyot Asalefew: sam from vietnam... is also in
[10:40:31 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Hi Sunny, we are just starting now
[10:40:58 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Sunny:can you follow what's been written up before in your chat window?
[10:41:26 AM] sunbiz: yes... I just finished reaching all the stuff
[10:41:27 AM] Chau Thu Tran: oh, no
[10:41:36 AM] sunbiz: *reading
[10:41:46 AM] Sam VN: hi all
[10:41:53 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: to all: when you are done, just write "pass"
[10:42:24 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Vietnam ppl are commenting now - right?
[10:42:29 AM] Chau Thu Tran: I don't finish. I want to know you read the document which i sent . Pass
[10:43:05 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Caroline?
[10:43:13 AM] sunbiz: yes, I read and ola summarized it nicely on all the requirements on the dev list. pass
[10:44:05 AM] estlinecarol: i am working on establishing a medical birth registration system that will register all new births carried out in HFs, Hospitals and communities
[10:44:33 AM] estlinecarol: pass
[10:45:16 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Hieu?
[10:45:26 AM] Hieu VN: pass
[10:45:30 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Knut?
[10:45:47 AM] knutstar: As many of you know, I am now in Geneva working with the World Health Organisation, with a focus on Country Health System Strengthening (CHeSS). The relationship between OpenMRS, DHIS and the CBHIS is therefore highly relevant
[10:46:20 AM] knutstar: it is quite clear that we don't want to replicate OpenMRS, which already is a great system for  patient records
[10:46:25 AM] sunbiz: For all the patient related stuff, I agree with Abyot that using OpenMRS is the best way to forward and it ensures we are collaborating and not re-inventing the wheel... I am building a leprosy patient registration and tracking module in DHIS2, that uses the OpenMRS API and datamodel... The user doesn't see the OpenMRS UI, and only uses DHIS2
[10:46:26 AM] knutstar: but supplement it
[10:46:32 AM] knutstar: a small overlap is ok
[10:46:54 AM] knutstar: that is very interesting, Sunny. Pass
[10:47:07 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sunny, can you wait until its your turn? your after Marlene, see the list above
[10:47:13 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Lars?
[10:47:18 AM] sunbiz: oops...sorry!!
[10:47:28 AM] Lars Helge Øverland: pass!
[10:47:31 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Marlene?
[10:47:48 AM] knutstar: Just a quick note: It's good if people start writing their comments a bit early
[10:48:00 AM] knutstar: so they are ready when the floor is theirs
[10:48:25 AM] Marlen: Am interested on implementing OpenMRS based sys for Malawi and to possibly extent its use in the community i.e. community maternal health workers.
[10:48:41 AM] Marlen: the extension should be based on mobile technology.
[10:48:42 AM] Marlen: pass
[10:49:23 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sunny?
[10:49:35 AM] knutstar: @Marlen - Malawi already has Baobab, right? Are you working with them? Baobab works with OpenMRS, I guess.
[10:49:39 AM] knutstar: sorry
[10:49:45 AM] knutstar: did not mean to sent
[10:49:50 AM] sunbiz: along with my previous comment about using the OpenMRS API, for real interoperability, I think we should be using Web-Services between these platforms, which is true for the Bihar portal that we discussed a few days back...

as for the CBHIS, I agree we should be looking at community/households and service plan instead of patient tracking
[10:49:56 AM] sunbiz: pass
[10:50:20 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Thanh?
[10:50:29 AM] thanhnew2001: pass
[10:50:35 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Thuy?
[10:51:08 AM] Tri VN: Th?y not online on skype
[10:51:09 AM] Tri VN: pass
[10:51:32 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: i'll wait, to much work on chairing.... Abyot?
[10:52:29 AM] knutstar: ?
[10:53:07 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I mean, its Abyot's turn now
[10:53:16 AM] knutstar: yes ,but he is not writing
[10:53:17 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I'll write something up soon
[10:53:27 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: he's writing in another editor
[10:53:34 AM] Abyot Asalefew: shall I take the turn
[10:53:36 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ?
[10:53:47 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Thank you.
Have seen the requirements both from Vietnam and Zanzibar, the requirement from India has been in the discssion for long. And would be great if we could see the same from  Malawi and Tanzania.
Looking the requirements from India, Vietnam and Zanzibar … I see more closeness between India and Zanzibar. The requirement from Vietnam looks more patient tracking/record and I also made a little chat with Trung. And I am quite confused …. If I got her correct she said they are almost done in developing the system
[10:53:56 AM] Abyot Asalefew: is that correct ... vietnam team?
[10:54:22 AM] Abyot Asalefew: if so then I don't see the design requiremnt discussion about that system.
[10:54:57 AM] Abyot Asalefew: if not developed then ... I see the system very close to patient record then I prefer that system customised ontop of OpenMRS
[10:55:21 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: VN team: can you respond to Abyot please?
[10:55:43 AM] Abyot Asalefew: building it from scratch inside DHIS2 will be a huge task
[10:55:58 AM] Tri VN: VN:team not yet done the system
[10:56:09 AM] Hieu VN: Excuse me, Trung (he) or Tran (she) ?
[10:56:50 AM] Chau Thu Tran: We built some based functions for the system according to our ideas
[10:57:10 AM] Chau Thu Tran: pass
[10:57:13 AM] Abyot Asalefew: but as far as requirements from IN and ZnZ is concerned then they are very close in a sense that a compromise can be reached for coming up with a single system inside DHIS2
[10:57:28 AM] Abyot Asalefew: sorry for -- the he/she confusion.
[10:57:46 AM] Abyot Asalefew: PASS
[10:58:11 AM] Abyot Asalefew: sorry .... more clarification from Vietanm
[10:58:34 AM] Abyot Asalefew: what is this some based function? are you done 50%, 75% or 20%....
[10:58:48 AM] knutstar: and where? Inside DHIS 2?
[11:00:35 AM] Tri VN: we were developing CB System inside DHIS2.0 as a module of DHIS2.0, and using some lib from DHIS2.0 ready have.
[11:00:36 AM] Tri VN: pass
[11:01:32 AM] Chau Thu Tran: According to our ideas, we build a system to able to create an object (child, mother, vaccination, .... ) and we manage the created object.
[11:01:36 AM] Chau Thu Tran: pass
[11:02:02 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ok Tri. But what is left to be developed? and what kind of input do you require from the Global HISP Team?
[11:03:46 AM] Tri VN: ok, sorry , we developed it from  local require in this center
[11:03:49 AM] Tri VN: pass
[11:03:50 AM] knutstar: @Ola: How do we indicate our interest in saying something? By just writing so you can see we are active? Or perhaps saying "hand" as a virtual raising of hands? pass
[11:04:29 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: "hand" is fine
[11:04:39 AM] Tri VN: and this is update for current child health system is working here
[11:04:39 AM] Tri VN: pass
[11:05:00 AM] knutstar: hand
[11:05:32 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: but, I think we can stop the VN discussion for now, obviously we need to be better at ligning our development efforts so I suggest Lars, Abyot and other get a look on the VN code and see how we can align that with the global CBHIS effort
[11:06:01 AM] Bob Jolliffe: launchpad please ... hand .. pass
[11:06:36 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Tri: can you please share this code on launchpad?
[11:07:22 AM] Tri VN: okies, i will commit code to launchpad on local folder
[11:07:25 AM] Tri VN: pass
[11:07:50 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: OK, then before we do another round on requirements for CBHIS I will provide my input
[11:08:09 AM] Tri VN: hand
[11:08:19 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: we need to find a balance between DHIS2 and OpenMRS..and that's not easy, but this VN req somehow illustrates the boundary
[11:08:25 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I think it could be possible to downscale the requirements in VN a bit to aligne them with India's, and use a DHIS CBHIS for part of it, which can be a short term development goal aligned with initiatives in India and other places.

But then also look at OpenMRS implementation in VN for the more complicated patient tracking part of it, but that would naturally be a more long term project, hopefully aligned with a global effort to integrate DHIS and OpenMRS.
[11:08:38 AM] Tri VN: now, can we have requirements for CBHIS system?
[11:08:40 AM] Tri VN: pass
[11:09:00 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Tri: You have seen the requirements on e-mail for many weeks now
[11:09:09 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Bob, you're up...
[11:09:13 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: 2nd round
[11:09:55 AM] Chau Thu Tran: I sent the document to you yesterday
[11:09:55 AM] Chau Thu Tran: pass
[11:10:03 AM] Bob Jolliffe: just worried about time.  I've got another 30minutes max.  recommend we move on to next item quickly.  pass.
[11:10:31 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Sunny?
[11:10:40 AM] sunbiz: @knut: Baobab also uses OpenMRS API through a different interface and their touch screen interface was much popularized

@vietnam: Have you tried looking at using the OpenMRS API through the DHIS2 interface?? How do you see the advantage of creating your own object (in your speak) compared to directly using the OpenMRS API... Using the API, simplifies deployment, training and gives a more integrated feel to the users of the system, instead of a separate OpenMRS deploymeny. And does the work of tracking patients and their medical records.

With the CBHIS, like Abyot mentions, we need to concentrate on registers, service provided by health worker and better reporting on what service was provided to which household. But I disagree on the part where the current DHIS2 datamodel of dataelements, datasets can be enough to do it efficiently. We need to have registers with related columns/tables, full-text search, cohort searches... then that alert/notification to the health worker about her schedule and then response from her about completion of providing that service (like a Tweet in Twitter)
[11:10:47 AM] sunbiz: pass
[11:11:56 AM] sunbiz: hand....
[11:12:33 AM] Abyot Asalefew: hand ...
[11:12:54 AM] Abyot Asalefew: @saptarshi: we can talk about that in the Design agenda
[11:13:07 AM] Abyot Asalefew: pass
[11:13:28 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: ok, lets start 2) Design
[11:13:31 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Bob?
[11:13:48 AM] Bob Jolliffe: There are a couple of design Issues of CBHIS which have popped up on the list.  I have already commented quite a bit.  Here's a three issue summary, based mostly on Abyot's initial draft proposal, but also on brief reading of the vietnam requirements:
    * security/privacy issues.  the database should be separate.  gives rise to the following questions.
          o can we do this currently - support two hibernate connections
          o using spring-hibernate?
          o using JPA? perhaps for the new connection only.
          o good practice is to create the connection with user supplied password
    * the datamodel
          o how far can we push the existing model? Discussion seems to indicate we can use it with minimum disruption.
          o if so there are design choices to be made around orgunit/source/patientID and migration consequences
          o we should not reinvent wheel on demographic info - use some reference -eg openMRS.  I think 
    * Register/XMLObject??? I am confused about this.
[11:14:12 AM] Bob Jolliffe: pass
[11:14:50 AM] Tri VN: hand should we use JPA? pass
[11:15:17 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hand .. also the detail might be best discussed on list or we could be here all day  .. pass
[11:15:37 AM] Abyot Asalefew: hand
[11:16:01 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Abyot?
[11:16:16 AM] Abyot Asalefew: I am not in favour of going for new technologies/frameworks ... mainly for the issue of learning curve and time
[11:16:54 AM] Abyot Asalefew: as to the best way to shape things in the design ..... I think we better assume the simplest possible and start the dirty work so that things in the process get shaped
[11:17:04 AM] Abyot Asalefew: otherwise we will never comeup with anything
[11:17:16 AM] Abyot Asalefew: has been 3 or so months just on the talking
[11:17:20 AM] Abyot Asalefew: passs
[11:19:14 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Lars?
[11:19:24 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Knut first, sorry
[11:19:29 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hand.  was that a knee jerk response to my mention of JPA?  How do you propose to have two connections?  pass.
[11:19:44 AM] knutstar: I understand the reluctance to introduce new frameworks, but the only rationale for doing so must be to simplify coding and architecture (after initial learning period). And I do think we need to plan the intro of new things in parallel. Sunny with support from Bob and Lars would be in a good position to do the planning of how to do this and  also point the others in the right direction for minimum disruption and burden of learning
[11:19:48 AM] knutstar: pass
[11:20:26 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: VN team: any comments on design?
[11:20:59 AM] Lars Helge Øverland: sunny: could you clarify what you mean by "
[11:10 AM] sunbiz:  registers with related columns/table

<<< "
is this something we cannot achieve in dhis2?
[11:21:24 AM] Abyot Asalefew: hand
[11:22:26 AM] Abyot Asalefew: with registers what I mean is specific programs - like Birth Register, ANC Register, Immunization Register ....
[11:22:38 AM] Abyot Asalefew: which is similar to datasets ...
[11:23:05 AM] Abyot Asalefew: in the community system .. we can think of registers as programs
[11:23:26 AM] sunbiz: another point: making persons/households as orgunits can be disaster because:
1.) Org units should generally be static... persons/households aren't static
2.) Association of a person/household to a org unit is needed, but lets not make it rigid... it should be a lot more loose association

* security:
It would be bad to use the same hibernate because we have the password in plain-text in the hibernate.properties. There are built-in Hibernate ways to not store them as plain-text.

* datamodel:
has to be different because of the need of the system and the kind of functionality it should provide. Since CBHIS should be a good reporting system (MIS), it requires the datamodel changes that I mentioned earlier.

* frameworks/technologies
May be there is a learning curve. But places where we are not using out-of-the-box solutions have to be anyways changed. If we have to change those, why not use something that's really cutting-edge, so that we don't reach EOL soon... but we make choices and find a balance in the learning curve and relavance + advantages.
[11:23:53 AM] Abyot Asalefew: which could be impemented through datasets ....
[11:24:56 AM] Abyot Asalefew: but these registers will be more of an advanced datasets which are going to contain a number of things apart - dataelement (patient, routne), village, ...
[11:25:03 AM] knutstar: Sorry, but I think we need to zoom a bit out again for the current audience, not too detailed. And Bob and I have to leave soon
[11:25:25 AM] Abyot Asalefew: all these things can be organized in sort of column/row ... or like custom dataentry
[11:25:33 AM] Abyot Asalefew: form
[11:26:08 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ..... all these components of a register/advanced_dataset can be organized/modeled using XMLObjects
[11:26:29 AM] Abyot Asalefew: that is just my idea/assumption about XMLObject
[11:26:49 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hand
[11:26:52 AM] sunbiz: @Lars: The reason why I say registers as different from datasets because these will need to store more dynamic data than static datasets. The reason for this is because it may include findings, notes by the health workers and changes by the health worker/medical officer on how he/she wants to store her service provisioning details
[11:27:12 AM] Abyot Asalefew: pass
[11:27:37 AM] sunbiz: pass
[11:27:43 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Knut: i think this discussion, on which datamodel to use is the essential one here, so lets continue for a while
[11:27:53 AM] knutstar: 
[11:28:16 AM] Bob Jolliffe: what is an XMLObject?  Can we just talk objects when we are talking about model?
[11:28:42 AM] Bob Jolliffe: pass
[11:29:02 AM] Abyot Asalefew: hand
[11:29:28 AM] Abyot Asalefew: as I mentioned in the requirement it is just an abstract with an attribute
[11:29:33 AM] Abyot Asalefew: • XMLObject
o Set<dataElement>
o Set<houseHoldVisit>
o date
o village
[11:29:45 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ...and that can be refiend of course
[11:30:22 AM] Bob Jolliffe: ok.  Perhaps XMLObject is just not a bvery descriptive name.
[11:30:36 AM] Abyot Asalefew: ya could be
[11:31:20 AM] Abyot Asalefew: that is why the specification document is on the discussion
[11:31:27 AM] Abyot Asalefew: please suggest any name
[11:31:52 AM] Bob Jolliffe: registerRow?
[11:32:03 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Ehhh...
[11:32:55 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: From Jørn:
To sunny and data model: We need a fixed reporting system in each instance of its use. As an extension of the reporting system. Free text is fine, but cannot be aggregated. I think the data set model is flexible, as it can be changed as u want it, while at the same time bein "fixed" as a register. I think we need t work more on the use cases, functionality and concepts, and deliniate more clearly between the current efort and OpenMRS (jørn)
[11:33:02 AM] Abyot Asalefew: but my assumption is it will include the headers and footers of registers inaddition to the rows (or instances)
[11:33:19 AM] sunbiz: @Abyot: as I understand, XMLObject thus becomes a single row in the datamodel, or are they spread across tables?? Also really storing the registers in the database as real-life registers (as single rows in a sheet of paper) is a concern
[11:33:47 AM] Abyot Asalefew: @sunbiz:
[11:34:53 AM] Abyot Asalefew: the idea with the XML object is we can put everything we want to have in a register in it and using GUI (mainly through drag and drop) we can organize it in whatever way we want ....
[11:35:24 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Hmm..
[11:35:31 AM] Abyot Asalefew: I think my idea is a bit different
[11:39:36 AM] Bob Jolliffe: hand
[11:39:54 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: bob
[11:40:09 AM] sunbiz: @Jorn: adding functionality to be able to mine the free-text in some notes section will be useful. We still have the fixed datasets, CBHIS may allow to create these fixed datasets from somewhat dynamic registers (as in practice health workers jot down notes on a piece of paper)
[11:40:23 AM] Bob Jolliffe: Can we agree the three issues I raised are outsanding design issues and raise discussion on each on list.
[11:40:53 AM] Hieu VN: hand.. as i understand . XMLObject is a dynamic object ?
[11:41:27 AM] Bob Jolliffe: I am more confused than before on xmlobject.  I think the idea needs to more elaborated.  I am sure there is something there ..
[11:42:40 AM] Bob Jolliffe: sunny .. what is the problem with a "note" dataelement in the dataset?
[11:43:14 AM] sunbiz: @Bob: it does not allow aggregation or mining on that note
[11:43:19 AM] Abyot Asalefew: yes XMLObject is a dynamic object. It contains the list of dataelements, villages, headers, footers a register or advanced_dataset is going to contain
[11:43:50 AM] Abyot Asalefew: so if you change XMLObject then you are actually changing (or designing a new) a new register
[11:44:41 AM] Bob Jolliffe: So maybe register is like a big DocBook XML stream - which can be mided with XPath queries?
[11:44:56 AM] Bob Jolliffe: s/mided/mined/
[11:45:00 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I think we need to seprate between the design of the registers (data entry forms in DHIS2 today) and the underlyaing datamodel / metadata
Using the data element/dataset approach we can design any kind of form on top of that
What it different here is how we link the metadata to the data, since we need to link data to orgunit, persons, date (the encounter), dataset (all items collected in the enocunter), data element (specific data item within the encounter )
If we do this we will have a lot of flexibility when it comes to creating and changing registers, just like we can easily change data sets and data entry forms in DHIS 2 today, AND we keep a structured metadata model that enables aggregation
[11:45:01 AM] Abyot Asalefew: so XMLObject is actually introduced to avoid a static nature of a register
[11:47:35 AM] Bob Jolliffe: agree with Ola.  Sorry I must go ...
[11:48:02 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: (jørn): free text is fie and can be added, but we are dealing with a data and reporting system, an dfree text has its limitations.(but we include them)

The XML object, row, or why not call it "encounter", is a number of data elements - a dynamic data set. Which is an extension of todays data set concept
[11:48:23 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Bob: bye. I will put a summary on the list and suggest various dicussions base don this chat
[11:48:35 AM] Bob Jolliffe: thanks .. bye all
[11:48:45 AM] Abyot Asalefew: bye Bob!
[11:48:55 AM] sunbiz: bye.. bob
[11:49:19 AM] sunbiz: @abyot: is XMLObject just a single row ??
[11:49:34 AM] *** Bob Jolliffe has left ***
[11:50:02 AM] Abyot Asalefew: no. XMLObjects contains
o Set<dataElement>
o Set<houseHoldVisit>
o date
o village
[11:50:15 AM] Abyot Asalefew: footer element
[11:50:19 AM] Abyot Asalefew: header element
[11:51:48 AM] sunbiz: Dynamic dataset sounds like a good word... its the same thing that I am suggesting
[11:51:55 AM] Hieu VN: hand... @Abyota can u explain morely about the footer and header of each elements ? What is it ? Why will be using them ?
[11:53:20 AM] Hieu VN: sorry that question was so stupid !
[11:57:04 AM] sunbiz: anyone home??? did I get disconnected ???
[11:57:35 AM] Hieu VN: no answer :D
[11:58:17 AM] Abyot Asalefew: sorry we are here
[11:58:52 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I think the "dynamic dataset" can be an improved version of today's dataset concept
[11:59:29 AM] Abyot Asalefew: were clarifying things among ourselves .... but it is about XMLObject.
[11:59:29 AM] Abyot Asalefew: and giving it a different name
[11:59:38 AM] Abyot Asalefew: Hieu .. do you still need the answer for your question?
[11:59:46 AM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: actually in 1.4 they have more atributed to datasets, like header data elements and a property to say where the data should be stored (what kind of data value)
[11:59:58 AM] Hieu VN: yup
[12:00:02 PM] Hieu VN: can u ?
[12:00:46 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ya .. it means anything you would like to put on the botom or top of the dataset/register/form....
[12:01:05 PM] Abyot Asalefew: or like Ola siad header dataelement, footer dataelement
[12:01:16 PM] sunbiz: XMLObject is a really good name...
[12:01:56 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: OK. lets move to 3) Time frame
[12:02:15 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: India, Vietnam, TZ/MAL - when do you need this system working in the field?
[12:03:24 PM] Abyot Asalefew: I think there are other pushing factors aswell ... like me wanting to have the system finished soon, the HISP-India proposal made last time
[12:03:43 PM] Abyot Asalefew: would love to have at least a first prototype by the end of August
[12:04:48 PM] Marlen: for Malawi, around december 09.
[12:06:05 PM] Abyot Asalefew: marlen you are quite safe then. But how close is your requirement -- didn't really have a clear picture.
[12:07:21 PM] Marlen: the aspect of ANC and postnatal health care is quite relevant for me because i assume there are some village health workers providing such services in Malawi
[12:07:52 PM] Abyot Asalefew: that is great. we have the exactly same thing in the CBHIS
[12:09:28 PM] Abyot Asalefew: I guess nobody wants to make a committment in deadline... only me? :(
[12:10:16 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: A first prototype by August sounds fine
[12:10:46 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ya and hope we all join our hands
[12:10:59 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and a first stable release by Dec 09?
[12:11:18 PM] Abyot Asalefew: and with the assumption that we will not be pushing for too many technological changes!
[12:11:48 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: yes, that's next on the agenda: 4)Technologies
[12:11:55 PM] Abyot Asalefew: may be Dec 09 is the best bet for that
[12:12:12 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ok sorry.
[12:13:03 PM] sunbiz: Dec '09 should be a realistic launch date
[12:13:09 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: still, we could look at this as an opportunity to upgrade a few frameworks, like moving to Spring Hibernate integration, Struts 2 and Spring Security
[12:13:21 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: that should be feasible
[12:13:21 PM] sunbiz: and mayb a few test releases before that
[12:18:29 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I think it is important that we get the protptype out in the field and tested as soon as possible, that will be crucial
[12:18:41 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: lab developnent does not work in this context
[12:18:41 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ok. fine if it is not a lot of work. But should tell this .... will not comit my self MUCH on this new tehnological things
[12:19:08 PM] Lars Helge Øverland: i will take care of the upgrade
[12:19:50 PM] Abyot Asalefew: haha.. great. that is how to get more hands.
[12:20:32 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Sunny, any comments on technologies?
[12:20:59 PM] Abyot Asalefew: comments and commitments also.
[12:21:53 PM] Abyot Asalefew: can we also at the same time - allocate tasks? that will make us move faster
[12:23:20 PM] sunbiz: I would like to see all the Spring out-of-the-box things (Spring-Hibernate and Spring MVC instead of Struts2), but I am with what everyone agrees.. Java EE 6 seems too far fetched for a Dec timeline, but if everyone agrees to help the migration of the services, then I dont think its impossible
[12:23:51 PM] Lars Helge Øverland: we will use spring-hibernate
[12:24:02 PM] sunbiz: another thing which was mentioned was the integrate health portal for Bihar by Sundeep and Jorn
[12:24:20 PM] Lars Helge Øverland: spring mvc will require tons of work...
[12:24:23 PM] sunbiz: that is another thing we may want to have at the back of our mind
[12:24:42 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I think we need to see this as a first step of upgrading our technologies, a first of many. We need (but not today) to make a more long term plan and thinking about further changes
[12:25:13 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: The CBHIS project is perfect for such a first step change process
[12:26:20 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: but as Sunny also indicates, the limited time frame and pressure from the field makes more radical changes difficult, BUt that does not mean that we will not make does changes in the future, as I said let's make that a separate discussion
[12:26:58 PM] Abyot Asalefew: just an idea? why don't we call is CHIS (Community Health Information Sysetm). Like DHIS (District Health Information System)
[12:27:06 PM] Abyot Asalefew: sorry for mixing the agenda
[12:27:21 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and discussions around the health portal, which in many ways is not new, will most likely lead to further upgrade plans regarding technologies
[12:27:32 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and hopefully we will get that discussion going pretty soon
[12:28:06 PM] sunbiz: @Abyot: sounds good to the ear... a political+organizational decisions... name selection for me are always funny decisions
[12:28:57 PM] Hieu VN: @Dear All: Sorry VN team should have been log out the conservation .. THANKS !
[12:29:48 PM] Abyot Asalefew: Vietnam: Aha you want to leave?
[12:30:06 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: ok, should we move to the last point 5) coding layout (and branch ++)
[12:30:23 PM] sunbiz: @vietnam: would have liked to hear more design recommendations
[12:31:22 PM] Chau Thu Tran: We suggest to use Spring/Hibernate/strut2
[12:31:25 PM] Chau Thu Tran: pass
[12:31:31 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I think we all need to have a look at the code VN team already has developed and then we can get more ideas on how they want it
[12:32:10 PM] Abyot Asalefew: and also better to treat the Vietnam case separately
[12:33:01 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: not sure it is a seprate case, many similarities
[12:33:10 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: but for now maybe
[12:33:44 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: but the main point is that we should all try to align our efforts, and then such solo projects are not very constructive for the gobal sw development project
[12:33:58 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: so the more we can align on sw dev the better of course
[12:34:06 PM] Abyot Asalefew: yes because they are half way in the coding, their forms (which implies theirrequirements) are a bit different
[12:34:31 PM] Abyot Asalefew: yes I agree with that.
[12:35:35 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: OK. lets move to coding layout:
[12:36:04 PM] Hieu VN: Hand ! Actually that, VN team has not untill undertand of Abyota's ideas  so that  We need to get more informations about Abyota's ideas ... it can be an documentary
[12:36:12 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: first, how do we organise this in launchpad?
a separate branch inside DHIS2 I guess?
[12:36:52 PM] Abyot Asalefew: yes separate branch. I remember creating one a month back
[12:37:12 PM] Abyot Asalefew: we can use that or create a new one
[12:38:20 PM] Lars Helge Øverland: i will create a branch for the framework upgrade
[12:38:33 PM] Lars Helge Øverland: maybe create a new one for the comm sys
[12:39:52 PM] Abyot Asalefew: Hiue ... may be we can discuss this in a separate mail. I mean if you want to know more my ideas. But it is all what I posted in the mailling list and also in this conference
[12:41:00 PM] Hieu VN: @Abyota: I've read ur previous mail but not enough for standing. And by the way, about VN
[12:42:49 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ok fine then you can mention me points you didn't understand and then I will try to give more explanation.
[12:43:29 PM] Hieu VN: Thank you alll so much. Have a good night ! See you !
[12:43:49 PM] Abyot Asalefew: Bye. Good night!
[12:45:04 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: bye
[12:45:06 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: thanks
[12:45:31 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: ok, any more comments?
[12:45:32 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ok then the coding layout. we have agreed on separate branch
[12:45:36 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: lets call it a day
[12:45:53 PM] Abyot Asalefew: done?!
[12:45:56 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: if you don't have enything more...
[12:46:00 PM] sunbiz: yes.. its been a long conf
[12:46:16 PM] Abyot Asalefew: would be happy if we could talk more on sharing the tasks
[12:46:31 PM] Abyot Asalefew: like Lars taking care of small technological migrations
[12:46:47 PM] sunbiz: but instead of these one off conf calls.. I believe smaller, often conf calls can be more productive
[12:46:55 PM] Abyot Asalefew: and I can handle the dataset/register ... stuff
[12:47:09 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: Sunny and Abyot, you are he ones that will do the programming right, that's what has been decided before right?
[12:47:24 PM] Abyot Asalefew: including the dataelement/patientdataelement issues
[12:47:34 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and then VN can possibly chip in later
[12:47:38 PM] knutstar: wow, you're still here
[12:47:59 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: easier for other people to join once we have a prototype
[12:48:04 PM] knutstar: are you pating this somewhere?
[12:48:10 PM] knutstar: agree with prototype
[12:48:13 PM] knutstar: pasting
[12:48:30 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sure, we keep a log
[12:48:36 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I will send out an email to the list
[12:48:41 PM] knutstar: cool
[12:48:42 PM] Abyot Asalefew: Saptarshi ... can you deal with the demographic part or which one you handle?
[12:49:28 PM] Abyot Asalefew: I am suggesting this because you are familiar with OpenMRS and you can pull somethings from there
[12:49:57 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sunny, just to be clear, you are planning to code on this one right?
[12:50:07 PM] sunbiz: yes
[12:50:11 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: good
[12:50:30 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: I suggest Abyot and Sunny figure out division of labour in a private chat
[12:50:36 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ok then we can discuss separately (me and sunny)
[12:50:43 PM] sunbiz: the demographic part = household + person + org unit associations...right ??
[12:50:59 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: lars has already said he will do the tech upgrade in a separate branch you can merge in quite soon
[12:51:20 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: timline for a functional protptype is then August, 1 or 31?
[12:51:32 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and Sunny-Abyot with help from Lars will do the coding
[12:51:32 PM] Abyot Asalefew: End of August to be safe
[12:51:35 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sure
[12:51:49 PM] sunbiz: @ola: sounds like a good plan
[12:52:03 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: and we create a branch on launchpad within the DHIS project for this, which starts as a copy of today's trunk
[12:52:12 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: good
[12:52:29 PM] knutstar: sounds excellent
[12:52:34 PM] knutstar: good job, guys
[12:53:35 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: let me repeart my comment abot the crucial point of testing this in the field as soon as possible, what is the plan for testing in India, do you have a site for this already, that could start testing+feedback process in Sept?
[12:54:28 PM] knutstar: indeed crucial
[12:54:58 PM] knutstar: will you also do testing in Tanzania/Znz?
[12:55:33 PM] Abyot Asalefew: ohh ya. I guess the whole India is waiting for that. And Sundeep will decide on which state/district to pilot ... but I hope that will no be an issue
[12:55:50 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: at least I can try to implement the Maternal death audit we did in Znz using the prototype
[12:56:07 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: maybe not in the field right away, but I can test it as an implementer / superuser I guess
[12:56:17 PM] Abyot Asalefew: and my plan is to go to India sometime in August
[12:56:22 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: since I now the requirements for what they are using at the moment
[12:56:58 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: ok, anything else?
[12:57:05 PM] knutstar: I like CHIS rather than CBHIS
[12:57:20 PM] Abyot Asalefew: nothing from my side - thank you.
[12:58:50 PM] knutstar: my guess right now is bihar - but this seems to change all the time
[12:59:00 PM] knutstar: dont think it needs to be decided quite yet
[12:59:20 PM] sunbiz: :P
[12:59:58 PM] knutstar: ok, looks like there is progress
[01:00:05 PM] knutstar: hope the coding can start immediately
[01:00:11 PM] knutstar: thx for talking
[01:01:02 PM] sunbiz: end of call then ??
[01:01:22 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: sure, let's end it now
[01:01:24 PM] Abyot Asalefew: should be
[01:01:24 PM] sunbiz: cya then... bye!!
[01:01:28 PM] Ola Hodne Titlestad: thanks everyone!
[01:01:31 PM] Marlen: bye
[01:01:32 PM] Abyot Asalefew: bye
[01:01:36 PM] knutstar: bye