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Please find the attached Class Diagram representing the Person and its model... Its not exhaustive. It lacks constructors, constants and some other parts that can be implemented in iterations. Also I have deliberately avoided Generalizes, Implements, Depends and the other clauses from the diagram because without the full design those are somewhat meaningless. It does not have the ActivityPlanner, Encounter and PatientDataValue. I have included something known as StaticDataValue in causeOfDeath (we can have that as static DataValues that will not change. More like a Dictionary). Similarly Dataset in servicesProvided is also a static Dataset (but not very static, if that makes any sense ;-)) Encounter is as much as we should get into a electronic health record (EHR). Program, Patient, Regimen, Findings, Drugs and the rest should be ignored. ActivityPlanner (a subclass of Dataset, as I understand) should be the basis of Encounters. Encounter will have the orgunitid, personid, period etc which is populated from the values in ActivityPlanner. I dont have a clear idea on the details of that, but I am sure Abyot can represent that for us. PS: I have used the Netbeans UML designer which is quite good for simple designs. Not as powerful as Rational's tools, but good enough for our needs . I have attached the Netbeans UML project for anyone who wants to edit or make changes on this model. --- Regards, Saptarshi PURKAYASTHA Director R & D, HISP India Health Information Systems Programme My Tech Blog: http://sunnytalkstech.blogspot.com You Live by CHOICE, Not by CHANCE 2009/6/4 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx> > I guess we all agree with this - I agree! > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Ola Hodne Titlestad <olati@xxxxxxxxxx>wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> Sorry to hear that many of you are not able to follow the discussion, I'll >> try to spell out more clearly what my main concerns and interests are. >> >> >> First of all. I still have a feeling that the community/home/family part >> of the requirements are perhaps blocking or at least interfering with other >> important usage of this module. But maybe it’s just a misunderstanding. I’ll >> discuss this with Abyot face2face (since we are sharing office…) soon, but >> first some lines to the list (sorry for terrorising you on this topic). >> >> *Orgunits (the main owner of data in a DHIS system) >> *I can't stop talking about orgunits because to me they are the key link >> between a routine system and a “client-extended routine system” (which I >> think it what we are developing, as opposed to a fully fledged medical >> records system (OpenMRS is a much better candidate there). >> >> >> >> We need a system where we can “follow the data” in further detail than in >> a normal routine system, either by looking at individual clients being >> served by the facility (at home or at the clinic) as part of health >> programme services, or by looking at more detailed data about a specific >> vital event ( a death, a birth, or an outbreak) taking place at a facility >> or in it’s catchment area. >> >> >> >> So while we need to collect data at the client level we still need to keep >> track of the orgunit responsible for the service, whether the service is >> carried out as part of a home visit in a facilities catchment area or at the >> health facility itself. >> >> >> >> Those essential needs make up the minimum common denominator for all the >> requirements and use cases we have discussed so far. Hopefully also when we >> include Jason’s requirements from Zambia…let’s see. >> >> >> >> As long as I can be sure that we agree on those basics, and that the >> following functionality is taken care of, I will stop interfering the >> detailed design discussions and hopefully let the coding of the prototype >> begin: >> >> Basic functionality for CHIS: >> >> 1) allow for data to be collected that has no reference to house, family >> or community, but simply a patient identifier and a clinic (this is needed >> for vital events registration) >> >> 2) enable quick drill-down from facility to client level when analysing at >> data (“moving from the routine monthly report to the register book”) – the >> main advantage of doing this CHIS inside DHIS >> >> 3) provide a user-defined and easy to use model for generating aggregated >> data based on client-data (extending the calculated data element approach, >> to create statistics and indicators from vital events) >> >> 4) Generation of routine data values (dataelement, orgunit, period). >> >> 4a) using the “extended calculated data element approach” (vital events >> etc, see my examples on Maternal Death audit from pervious mails) >> >> 4b) in a community setting simply reuse the dataelements from the >> register, but aggregated up to a facility and a month (or other desired >> PeriodType) >> >> * * >> >> *Activity Planning and client tracking* >> >> On top of that, but equally important, we have the requirements to >> support the health programs in carrying out their home visits; >> >> 1) by providing activity plans with specific encounters/activities (where, >> when and what) that has to be carried out, >> >> 2) the ability to track a client as see his/her status within a specific >> programme, as to which vaccines are missing, checkups needed etc. >> >> I am not saying that we should not prioritise the Activity Planning >> functionality here, of course we need that as part of the first prototype, >> it is simply a separation of functionality to more summarise the needs from >> all the use cases, and to try to map out what I see as the basics that are >> shared by all the use cases we try to cover with this module. >> >> >> best regards, >> Ola Hodne Titlestad >> HISP >> University of Oslo >> >> >> 2009/6/4 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx> >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Please find the attached diagram though not complete. Saptarshi, you can >>> extend the diagram after sorting out the details with person, >>> house/orgunit,... >>> >>> Looking for your comments. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> Abyot. >>> >>> >>> 2009/6/4 Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx> >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> 2009/6/4 Saptarshi Purkayastha <sunbiz@xxxxxxxxx>: >>>> > I was silently following the discussion, because I am having a hard >>>> time >>>> > trying to understand what is being discussed. I was hoping to >>>> understand the >>>> > ideas as things were discussed more. Some clever guys invented >>>> diagrams (UML >>>> > and the like) for modelling and "Picture do speak a thousand words". >>>> >>>> Agreed. Is there a favoured dhis2 uml tool I wonder? We can surely >>>> share the pictures but it would be good to use the same tool. >>>> >>>> >As for Encounters, these should be treated as anything where a Person >>>> > (health worker, patient, household or family) has received a service. >>>> Death >>>> > audit on the other hand is not receiving of a service (death during >>>> delivery >>>> > or immunization can be recorded as part of an encounter). Instead the >>>> real >>>> > audit of death should come from a Person's state (OOP speak: fields) >>>> and >>>> > should be accessed as behaviors (OOP speak: methods). The Person >>>> should have >>>> > deathDate, causeOfDeath just like a Person has birthDate, name and >>>> address. >>>> > Ideally, Encounters should be filled in (or simply adding a >>>> "checkmark", >>>> > that it was done) from an ActivityPlanner dataset. Thus the >>>> ActivityPlanner >>>> > is a dataset and after values have been filled (or checkmark added) >>>> into it >>>> > by using the EncounterService, it becomes an Encounter. >>>> ActivityPlanner is >>>> > generated from the ActivityPlannerService, which gets its data from >>>> another >>>> > dataset. >>>> > @Ola: I do not agree to the notion that Person can be considered as an >>>> > extension of the OrgUnit. >>>> >>>> We do need a diagram here! Think Source rather than OrgUnit. .If you >>>> look at dhis-api/src/main/java/org/hisp/dhis/source/Source.java you >>>> will see that a Source is nothing more than a wrapper for an >>>> Identifier. So a rich model for a person (like for example the >>>> OpenMRS demographic model) can extend Source in exactly the same way >>>> OrgUnit does. This doesn't make Person an OrgUnit or an extension of >>>> one. >>>> >>>> The main benefit being we might then be able to reuse datavalue as-is >>>> which I think would be good. Without it, we resort to creating a new >>>> PersonDataValue which would perhaps be tolerable but not ideal. >>>> >>>> >Person should have something of a relationship >>>> > with an OrgUnit just as a Person should have relationship with other >>>> Person >>>> > and only Person should have an Encounter, not an OrgUnit. >>>> >>>> Agreed. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> > PS: A UML representation is needed before we can code, to summarize >>>> what has >>>> > been talked about till date about the design because everyone >>>> (including me) >>>> > have been forgetting what was decided and what was debated. >>>> > >>>> > --- >>>> > Regards, >>>> > Saptarshi PURKAYASTHA >>>> > Director R & D, HISP India >>>> > Health Information Systems Programme >>>> > >>>> > My Tech Blog: http://sunnytalkstech.blogspot.com >>>> > You Live by CHOICE, Not by CHANCE >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > 2009/6/4 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> >> >>>> >> No it will not be generated by an activity planner service. It will >>>> have >>>> >> its own service I don't know may be encouterSevice or something like >>>> that. >>>> >> But Activity planner is going to make use of Encounters. As you >>>> mentioned >>>> >> the whole world doesn't go by the plan but as far as Health Extension >>>> >> program is concerned then that is the reality. I mean health workers >>>> will be >>>> >> given a sheet of paper list of names together with house numbers and >>>> the >>>> >> kind of service they are going to provide on the date specified. >>>> >> >>>> >> Now to the auditing thing, forget for the time being the activity >>>> planning >>>> >> or the community thing. I have seen a 1.4 patient module. When ever >>>> you >>>> >> click on the person icon and new pop up window opens with a list of >>>> items to >>>> >> be populated inluding the name of the person. I think this for me is >>>> an >>>> >> Encounter. A clincian has been waiting for a patient to arrive, a >>>> patinet >>>> >> arrives and the clinican picks a piece of paper/form to register the >>>> >> incidence - could be death, birth or immunization or generally a >>>> treatment. >>>> >> For me this is an encounter which got shaped dyanamically (for >>>> example the >>>> >> individual identified during the point of care). And just like paper >>>> forms >>>> >> (for recording such an incidence) are printed before hand like a >>>> template, >>>> >> then a dataset (the current one) will be used as a template to >>>> generate a >>>> >> more advanced and dynamic one called Encounter >>>> >> >>>> >> The activity planner by no means introduced the Encounter. I don't >>>> know >>>> >> may be I got influenced by OpenMRS, at least on this Encounter thing. >>>> That >>>> >> is how they modeled it - Saptarshi can you comment on this? >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks >>>> >> Abyot. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> 2009/6/3 Ola Hodne Titlestad <olati@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> 2009/6/3 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nooooo - I mean the point you mentioned that Encounter got >>>> introduced >>>> >>>> because I wanted to have it for the activity plan generation. No >>>> that is not >>>> >>>> the reason. And I didn't really understnad the data Vs metadata and >>>> also >>>> >>>> dhis design Vs activity/paln mixup I made. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> What confuses me (but less after your last email) is that you want >>>> to use >>>> >>> Encounter both as an Activity and as kind of "data table". Let's see >>>> if I >>>> >>> know understand you correctly: >>>> >>> An Encounter is generated by "an activity planner service" based on >>>> a >>>> >>> dataset and a plan (who to visit and when) and then an instance of >>>> an >>>> >>> Encounter would contain a specific value for source, patientID and >>>> date >>>> >>> right and would be what I call a planned encounter, right? And >>>> after the >>>> >>> encounter has been made there will data values in PatientDataValue >>>> linked to >>>> >>> the Encounter, right? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So you can say that there is a two step process in "populating" a >>>> >>> "complete patient data value", first you populate the Encounter with >>>> source, >>>> >>> patient and date (which can happen any time), and then at the time >>>> of data >>>> >>> entry or import you populate the PatientDataValues and reference the >>>> already >>>> >>> exisiting encounter. Is this correct? >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyways, I could be wrong in my proposition. But the reason I >>>> brought >>>> >>>> the idea of Encounter is a simple normalization of >>>> patientdatavalue. Imagine >>>> >>>> a row in a datavalue table >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (patientid,date,sourceid,dataelementid,optioncomboid,value) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> and the first 3 columns will be the same for an individual say for >>>> >>>> example for hundredes of dataelements collected in a specific >>>> instance of >>>> >>>> patient's diagnosis or treatment or actually an encounter. so >>>> patient,source >>>> >>>> and date are I feel unqiue in describing an encounter - that is how >>>> I >>>> >>>> introduced Encouner. In addition, this apporach will avoid direct >>>> linkage of >>>> >>>> a patient to his/her sensitive data. And of course an Encounter is >>>> a valid >>>> >>>> concept, I feel, in the CHIS we are trying to develop. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I can see the need for normalisation, although I assume you could >>>> argue >>>> >>> that this is also the case with normal routine data values in DHIS, >>>> and >>>> >>> there we chose not to do this. Is it worth to break with this design >>>> or not, >>>> >>> that is what I am asking I guess. Why use a different apporoach here >>>> than >>>> >>> for routine data when I think it would be easier for all involved if >>>> we >>>> >>> streamlined approaches to data stroring. Of course if there are >>>> better >>>> >>> reasons (maybe you have already mentioned them and I simply don't >>>> understand >>>> >>> them) for normalisation of client data than with routine data, if so >>>> I will >>>> >>> no object it, but as a general principle I think we should follow >>>> the same >>>> >>> design approach were feasible. But not at any cost of course. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> My main concern is that the concept of Encounter, at least to me >>>> only >>>> >>> seems to fit with the community part of this module and not with the >>>> >>> audit/case-based part. E.g. with the use case from Zanzibar (and >>>> many other >>>> >>> places) where you want to collect data about a Maternal Death there >>>> will be >>>> >>> no encounter, but an audit form that is filled after the death >>>> occurred, or >>>> >>> similar with other vital events like births or with notifiable >>>> disease >>>> >>> notification where you collect a lot of detail about a specific new >>>> case. In >>>> >>> this case I guess you can also argue for normalisation and keep >>>> metadata >>>> >>> (patient,source, date) about the "event" in a separate table, but to >>>> me the >>>> >>> name "encounter" seem wrong in this scenario. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I know it is hard to make one design fit all these cases perfectly, >>>> but >>>> >>> my hope was that we could come up with a generic data model for >>>> collecting >>>> >>> and storing patient data that would work for both community >>>> registers and >>>> >>> for audits on vital events (death, birth, case of notifiable >>>> disease), and >>>> >>> then build on such a "basic patient model" what you need to >>>> conceptualise >>>> >>> encounters and activity plans. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Infact this approach is more scalable than what you are mentioning >>>> ... >>>> >>>> because at some point we may need to go through encounters and deal >>>> with >>>> >>>> history. by then we can add more attributes to enounters and expand >>>> >>>> functionalities. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> which I guess will move them even further away for other usage than >>>> for >>>> >>> community registers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> probably we need to draw a line - I mean with aggregate systems Vs >>>> >>>> individual/patient based systems --- because the direct >>>> manipulation of data >>>> >>>> makes sense for aggregate systems. And for the case based (or >>>> Individual) >>>> >>>> systems then I think we need to depend on queries or services to be >>>> provided >>>> >>>> by the system for aggregation or manipulation of data. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ok, I guess I see it from the other side; that we could keep the >>>> same >>>> >>> design for data values, but add new services to represent >>>> encounters, >>>> >>> registers, plans etc. on top of that >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Ola >>>> >>> ---------- >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Abyot. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2009/6/3 Ola Hodne Titlestad <olati@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Sorry, maybe I'm a bit slow, but I don't manage to follow this >>>> >>>>> reasoning. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> First of all I get a bit confused as to what is metadata and data >>>> in >>>> >>>>> your model Abyot. Now it seems you have split up data values for >>>> patient >>>> >>>>> data into two objects, Encounter and PatientDataValue, is that >>>> right? I can >>>> >>>>> see that PatientDataValue does no longer have a refenece to place >>>> or time, >>>> >>>>> but that this is taken care of through an Encounter. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> If that is the case then we will not get the straight forward >>>> >>>>> calculation of aggregated data that we would have with Date >>>> (easily up to >>>> >>>>> month) and Orgunit (group data values by orgunit) in >>>> PatientDataValue, which >>>> >>>>> I would not recommend, especially for other use cases like >>>> birth/death >>>> >>>>> audits or disease surveillance. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> (Guess I forgot to mention the orgunit reference from patient data >>>> >>>>> value earlier today,although it has been mentioned before. It has >>>> many >>>> >>>>> advantages when zooming in and out between aggregated and >>>> disaggregated >>>> >>>>> data.) >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> But from your description of an Encounter as part of the tasks >>>> carry >>>> >>>>> out in the generated activity plan I got the feeling that >>>> Encounter is >>>> >>>>> metdata describing HOW to collect the datavalues as is the case >>>> with data >>>> >>>>> sets. "By whom" and "when" in Encounter, seems to be information >>>> belonging >>>> >>>>> to a data value, and not metadata. If the references to Whom and >>>> When in >>>> >>>>> Encounter are "planned values" something you are supposed to do >>>> then I get >>>> >>>>> it, but then I guess we cannot use the same values as part of the >>>> data >>>> >>>>> value, I mean the world does not always go according to the plan. >>>> Maybe you >>>> >>>>> just forgot to add a reference to PatientID and Date (and Source >>>> maybe) in >>>> >>>>> PatientDataValue, if so then it would make sense to me. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I am not sure I like how you model mixes activities and plans with >>>> the >>>> >>>>> straightforward DHIS design of data elements, datasets, >>>> datavalues. Could >>>> >>>>> your planned activities be linked to dataset, patient, and source >>>> without >>>> >>>>> interfering with dataset and datavalue? That would keep the model >>>> simpler >>>> >>>>> and easier to use for other use cases where we ant to collect >>>> case-based or >>>> >>>>> client data. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> An Encounter or a register, isn't that simply a view on top of >>>> patient >>>> >>>>> data values (filtered by dataset, date, patient), similar to a >>>> dataset >>>> >>>>> report in routine DHIS? I understand the importance of referencing >>>> the >>>> >>>>> encounter from the datavalue, but not sure I see the point of this >>>> >>>>> dataset+encounter design. Your Encounter object sounds more like >>>> an Activity >>>> >>>>> object which is stricty metadata (that says something of what you >>>> plan to >>>> >>>>> do) and not a regsiter/encounter (which says what have been done) >>>> that has >>>> >>>>> values for a patient, date and a set of data elements. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> best regards, >>>> >>>>> Ola Hodne Titlestad >>>> >>>>> HISP >>>> >>>>> University of Oslo >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> 2009/6/3 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> 2009/6/3 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> A bit tricky! >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I think we need to maintain both Encounter and DataSet. I mean, >>>> a >>>> >>>>>>> DataSet evolving to an Encounter whenever a visit is made by >>>> either a >>>> >>>>>>> patient or a health-worker. This will help us to implement a >>>> dynamic DataSet >>>> >>>>>>> functionality. And here the DataSet will be acting only as a >>>> template to >>>> >>>>>>> guide an Encounter. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> · DataSet >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Source >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Period (for CHIS, daily periodType) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o set<DataElement> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> · ActivityPlan >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Owner – person (Health Extension Worker) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Supervisor – person (Medical Officer) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Date – date >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Activities – set<Encounter> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> · Encounter implements DataSet >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Where – source (could be house or facility or anything >>>> else…) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o When – date (time stamp) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o ByWhom – person (the patient) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o What – set<DataElement> (list of data to be collected) >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Sorry for the above strange stuff. I think it is better like down >>>> >>>>>> below. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> · Encounter >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> o DataSet >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> o ByWhom – person (the patient) >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> o When – date (time stamp) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> · PatientDataValue >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o EncounterID >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o DataElementID >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o OptionComboID (just in case we are going to collecet >>>> multiple >>>> >>>>>>> values for a dataelement) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> o Value >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Activity plan is linked to an Encounter because during a >>>> >>>>>>> house-to-house visit, health-workers are to follow a strict >>>> plan, signed by >>>> >>>>>>> her/his supervisor outlining whom to meet, where, when and what >>>> kind of >>>> >>>>>>> service to give (or what kind of data to collect). >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> The above approach will help us to do scheduling/tracking which >>>> I >>>> >>>>>>> guess are very much linked to Encounters. For example a Mother >>>> need to be >>>> >>>>>>> scheduled for a 2nd ANC Encounter following her 1st ANC >>>> Encounter, or >>>> >>>>>>> similarly for Child Immunization. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> The dataelement classification is only to have a nice and tidy >>>> list >>>> >>>>>>> of dataelements on the GUI, for example not showing patient >>>> related >>>> >>>>>>> dataelements in indicator or datamart processing - which is a >>>> nice idea of >>>> >>>>>>> Ola. The classification will have no use for the functionality >>>> of CHIS. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>> >>>>>>> Abyot. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Bob Jolliffe < >>>> bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> 2009/6/3 Ola Hodne Titlestad <olati@xxxxxxxxxx>: >>>> >>>>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Bob Jolliffe >>>> >>>>>>>> > <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> 2009/6/3 Ola Hodne Titlestad <olati@xxxxxxxxxx>: >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > Hi Abyot, >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > If you read my summary e-mails just before the skype >>>> conference >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > you will >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > see >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > that my suggestion was NOT to have a different type of >>>> data >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > element, and >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > I >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > understood from the skype chat that we agreed on the same. >>>> What >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > we >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > talked >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > about was to possibly make a separation in the user >>>> interface >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > to avoid >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > confusing the users, but in the background use the same >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > DataElement >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > object, >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > but I am not sure that will always be needed as there are >>>> lot >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > of overlap >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > between routine and CHIS data elements. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > As you say, if we want to easily reuse datasets and data >>>> entry >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > forms >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > functionality we need to use the DataElement object also >>>> for >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > client data >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > elements. And of course we want to reuse what Murid has >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > implemented >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > regarding option lists for pre-defined values for data >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > elements. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > The separation comes in DataValue as the PatientDataValue >>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > need >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > other >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > properties than the (routine) DataValue. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> Agreed. But what would these properties be exactly? Two >>>> options >>>> >>>>>>>> >> which have surfaced are: >>>> >>>>>>>> >> 1. an additional patientID attribute; or >>>> >>>>>>>> >> 2. no additional attribute - association of patient as a >>>> "source" >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> The first is most obvious and perhaps simplest. And I >>>> suspect I >>>> >>>>>>>> >> am >>>> >>>>>>>> >> the only one crazy enough to see any merit in exploring the >>>> >>>>>>>> >> second. >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > patientID yes, but probably also a DataSetID as we need to >>>> keep >>>> >>>>>>>> > track (and >>>> >>>>>>>> > separation) of the encounters/visits (instances of a dataset, >>>> "a >>>> >>>>>>>> > filled >>>> >>>>>>>> > form") in a more efficient way than we do in DataValue now. >>>> >>>>>>>> > At least this is how its done in 1.4 Patient module and also >>>> for >>>> >>>>>>>> > Survey type >>>> >>>>>>>> > data. >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> So I'm guessing Abyot will make a PatientDataElement with >>>> >>>>>>>> >> something >>>> >>>>>>>> >> like a patientID. >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > Data elements do not have any direct reference to its source, >>>> so >>>> >>>>>>>> > this should >>>> >>>>>>>> > not be necessary. It is the datavalue that keeps this >>>> reference >>>> >>>>>>>> > and which >>>> >>>>>>>> > again is controlled by the dataset. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry typo - I meant PatientDataValue .. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> > We would in stead need a maintain Patients/Clients in a >>>> separate >>>> >>>>>>>> > object, and >>>> >>>>>>>> > pherhaps in a hierarchy (family, village). Lars also liked >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>> > idea of >>>> >>>>>>>> > implementing the source object here, and I am open to that. >>>> After >>>> >>>>>>>> > all that >>>> >>>>>>>> > is why we created the source, to have diffeent types of >>>> sources to >>>> >>>>>>>> > register >>>> >>>>>>>> > data, not only orgunits. >>>> >>>>>>>> > The peirod handling might also be different here as we always >>>> work >>>> >>>>>>>> > on dates >>>> >>>>>>>> > since these data are snapshots in time and not aggregtated >>>> over a >>>> >>>>>>>> > certain >>>> >>>>>>>> > period. >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > Calle might have some useful input to how patient values are >>>> >>>>>>>> > different from >>>> >>>>>>>> > routine, apart from the security aspect we already discussed >>>> some >>>> >>>>>>>> > weeks >>>> >>>>>>>> > back. >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> What else? Do we need a concept like an encounter (or >>>> visit) to >>>> >>>>>>>> >> which >>>> >>>>>>>> >> a date would be tied? Or can something be done with a >>>> >>>>>>>> >> PeriodType? >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > If we are going to reuse the DHIS concepts of data element, >>>> >>>>>>>> > dataset, data >>>> >>>>>>>> > entry form and data value then the dataset is the key here. >>>> >>>>>>>> > In many ways routine datasets and "client" datasets are very >>>> >>>>>>>> > similar, and "a >>>> >>>>>>>> > filled form", or what might be called an instance of a >>>> dataset, >>>> >>>>>>>> > contains >>>> >>>>>>>> > values linked to data elements for a given period and a given >>>> >>>>>>>> > source. Client >>>> >>>>>>>> > encounters, rows from a register book, are also like that; a >>>> >>>>>>>> > client name, >>>> >>>>>>>> > multiple data elements (columns in the book) with values, and >>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>> > date. After >>>> >>>>>>>> > all its the final row of the register book, the total row >>>> >>>>>>>> > aggregating all >>>> >>>>>>>> > the encounters that gives the routine values for a monthly >>>> routine >>>> >>>>>>>> > dataset. >>>> >>>>>>>> > This example also illustrates how data elements overlap >>>> between >>>> >>>>>>>> > client data >>>> >>>>>>>> > and routine data, routine data are simply the total of "all >>>> >>>>>>>> > clients" for the >>>> >>>>>>>> > month. (This is not the case in survey audit type of datasets >>>> e.g. >>>> >>>>>>>> > with >>>> >>>>>>>> > maternal detah audits, but for standard CHIS it is mostly the >>>> >>>>>>>> > case) >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > If we keep track of the DatasetID in a ClientDataValue object >>>> we >>>> >>>>>>>> > can the >>>> >>>>>>>> > easily get an ecounter by querying for a client + a date + a >>>> >>>>>>>> > dataset, or a >>>> >>>>>>>> > list of all encounters (within a certain programme (dataset)) >>>> by >>>> >>>>>>>> > querying >>>> >>>>>>>> > for a client + a dataset. Of course it would be possible to >>>> get >>>> >>>>>>>> > all data >>>> >>>>>>>> > elements belonging to a dataset without directly referencing >>>> >>>>>>>> > datasetid in >>>> >>>>>>>> > datavalue, we do that today for dataset reports. Again, we >>>> need to >>>> >>>>>>>> > check >>>> >>>>>>>> > this with Calle or others, but I think client data are >>>> different >>>> >>>>>>>> > in the way >>>> >>>>>>>> > that a data element can exist in multiple datasets AND be >>>> >>>>>>>> > registered for all >>>> >>>>>>>> > of them for the same client and date, because the same data >>>> >>>>>>>> > elements in >>>> >>>>>>>> > different datasets might have different meanings and values. >>>> For >>>> >>>>>>>> > routine >>>> >>>>>>>> > this is not the case, that is why we di not keep a reference >>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>> > dataset in >>>> >>>>>>>> > datavalue, it is enough to use data element to describe the >>>> >>>>>>>> > meaning of the >>>> >>>>>>>> > data. >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > So each encounter will be a data entry form, and its metadata >>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>> > be >>>> >>>>>>>> > controlled through the dataset object, similar to how its >>>> done for >>>> >>>>>>>> > routine >>>> >>>>>>>> > data. In the dataset object we need to specify what kind of >>>> data >>>> >>>>>>>> > that is >>>> >>>>>>>> > going to be registered,e.g. aggregated, disaggregated, >>>> survey(or >>>> >>>>>>>> > routine, >>>> >>>>>>>> > client, survey). Semi-permanent is then included in routine >>>> which >>>> >>>>>>>> > is a bit >>>> >>>>>>>> > confusing, that is why I prefer aggregated. Anyway, the >>>> principle >>>> >>>>>>>> > is the >>>> >>>>>>>> > same. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> OK. This makes sense. A register object (for want of a better >>>> >>>>>>>> term) >>>> >>>>>>>> would be a specialisation of dataset. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> > Datasets could be made even more dynamic, as we discussed on >>>> >>>>>>>> > Skype, by >>>> >>>>>>>> > adding other attributes like a set of header data elements >>>> and a >>>> >>>>>>>> > set of >>>> >>>>>>>> > footer data elements. These will be based on the same type of >>>> data >>>> >>>>>>>> > elements, >>>> >>>>>>>> > but stored or treated in a different way (in data entry and >>>> data >>>> >>>>>>>> > value).Exactly how I am not sure, but we should look in >>>> detail at >>>> >>>>>>>> > how 1.4 >>>> >>>>>>>> > treats header data elements. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Trying to piece together what a register might look like in >>>> xml: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> <register name="Immunization register"> >>>> >>>>>>>> <dataset name="header" > >>>> >>>>>>>> <dataelement name="????" > >>>> >>>>>>>> <datavalue source="[clinicID]" period="???" >>>> value="34" >>>> >>>>>>>> /> >>>> >>>>>>>> </dataelement> >>>> >>>>>>>> <dataelement name="????" > >>>> >>>>>>>> <datavalue source="[clinicID]" period="???" >>>> value="34" >>>> >>>>>>>> /> >>>> >>>>>>>> </dataelement> >>>> >>>>>>>> </dataset> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdataset name="immunization data" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> <dataelement name="???"> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID1]" value="36" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> <!-- should date be done with a period >>>> type? >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID2]" value="43" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID3]" value="35" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID4]" value="22" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> </dataelement> >>>> >>>>>>>> <dataelement name="???"> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID1]" value="36" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID2]" value="43" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID3]" value="35" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> <patientdatavalue source="[patientID4]" value="22" >>>> >>>>>>>> date="01/01/2010" /> >>>> >>>>>>>> </dataelement> >>>> >>>>>>>> </patientdataelement> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> </register> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> While typing the above it occurred to me that header AND footer >>>> are >>>> >>>>>>>> probably not necessary for representing a register. What we >>>> really >>>> >>>>>>>> need is a set of dataelements associated with the register and >>>> a set >>>> >>>>>>>> associated with register rows. Whether the elements in the >>>> former >>>> >>>>>>>> are >>>> >>>>>>>> eventually rendered in the header or the footer is probably a >>>> >>>>>>>> presentation issue which could be determined by, for example, >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>> name >>>> >>>>>>>> or ID of the dataelement. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Also the above patientdataset is grouped on the dataelement >>>> axis. >>>> >>>>>>>> Could also be grouped on source/patientID, making it closer in >>>> >>>>>>>> analogy >>>> >>>>>>>> to rows in a register. Though deriving the latter from the >>>> former >>>> >>>>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>> a simple enough transformation. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Abyot, returning to your original question, I don't know if >>>> having a >>>> >>>>>>>> dataelement classification is necessary. If the dataelements >>>> are >>>> >>>>>>>> always members of a dataset (at least one or only one ..) then >>>> >>>>>>>> probably not. But I think you are right that it is only as you >>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>> >>>>>>>> out the detail that the truth might emerge ... >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>> >>>>>>>> Bob >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> > Ola >>>> >>>>>>>> > -------- >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> Regards >>>> >>>>>>>> >> Bob >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > And we also talked about the need to extend the DataSet >>>> object >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > to >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > include >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > more properties that makes datasets more flexible and >>>> dynamic >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > as we need >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > them for CIS and also for survey data. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > So here I guess we all agree, there is no need to come up >>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > a >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > separate >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > PatientDataElement. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > best regards, >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > Ola Hodne Titlestad >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > HISP >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > University of Oslo >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Abyot Gizaw < >>>> abyota@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Hi All, >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Couldn't really convince myself as to the need to keep a >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> separate track >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> of >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> dataelements called patientdataelement. I just did an >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> implementation >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> for >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> patientdataelement ... but when giving it a thought about >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> linking it >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> with >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> some custom and predefiend values, then I see that one >>>> already >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> in place >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> by >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Murod for the routine dataelements. And if we are going >>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> have a case >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> of >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> like recording multiple values for a single patient >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> dataelement, then >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> we >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> also will redo all the compex task of linking with >>>> options, >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> categories >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> and >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> their combinations, which is again in place for the >>>> routine >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> dataelements. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> If the need to separate the two - routine and patient is >>>> only >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> for the >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> purpose of managment, then I think it will be better if >>>> we >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> could >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> introduce >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> an attribute called 'classification' for dataelements. >>>> With >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> this >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> attribue we >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> can classify our dataelements like - Routine, Patient, >>>> Header, >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Footer,... >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Any input will be appreciated. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Thank you >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Abyot. >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Post to : dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > Post to : dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> >> Post to : dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> > Post to : dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs<https://launchpad.net/%7Edhis2-devs> >>>> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >> >
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