dubuntu-team team mailing list archive

[Ryan Macnish <nisshh@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Lol, you just said what i forgot to put in my first post. I propose that we go with my idea plus Charls. It is simple, effective and still only has one window.

> Subject: RE: [Dubuntu-team] GUI design principles
> From: charl.wentzel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: nisshh@xxxxxxxxxxx
> CC: dubuntu-team@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:14:26 +0200
> 
> Could I add one more level to that...
> 
> In Synaptic you enter a search string and then select from the result,
> in this case a list of packages.
> 
> In DevBuntu you have a predefined search criteria that you complete:
> language, target environment, etc... (This is a significant improvement
> since you are given guidance in what to search for)
> 
> Then you have a selection to make from the results.  I don't think the
> results in this case should be packages but rather... let's call it
> pre-defined package groups.  And then the next level would only be
> packages, which the advanced user can fiddle with further.
> 
> The idea here is that if you want to install Eclipse for C++ you
> actually have to install several packages!  Expecting a newbie or even
> an experienced guy that doesn't know the "new" tool to know what to
> select is where the problem comes in.
> 
> So here's what I suggest...
> 
> Package groups are assigned to categories. So under the category "IDE"
> you'll have package groups called "Elipse", "Quanta Plus", etc and under
> the category "Compilers" you will have package groups "GCC", "Townsend",
> etc.
> 
> All packages directly related to Eclipse (e.g. docs, plug-ins, etc) will
> be assigned to the package group "Eclipse".  This of course will
> included the plug-ins for all the languages, JAVA, C++, Python, etc.  
> 
> However, packages are filtered by the requirements.  So if you stated
> the requirement language=C++ you will only see the language plug-ins
> that relate to C++, in this case one package called eclipse-cdt.  Since 
> 
> So your actual list of packages will be:
> - eclipse
> - eclipse-doc
> - eclipse-cdt
> 
> Now we are making things easier, even for the experience guys.  If the
> user wants to go and for example deselect eclipse-doc, he can then do
> it.
> 
> If you look at the pictures of my proposal, this is what I tried to
> illustrate on the second screen with the three sections.  I'm not trying
> to convince you to use my screen layout, just explaining the principle.
> 
> Regards
> Charl
> 
> On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 18:15 +0930, Ryan Macnish wrote:
> > Wow...that was a nice speech you gave Charl. The GUI really does
> > depend on the back-end to determine some of its code.
> > 
> > What if we take the good bits from each of your proposals and put them
> > together?
> > 
> > I prefer one window over 3 or more.
> > Let the user pick between an advanced mode and a basic mode. Advanced
> > mode obviously having more choice and flexibility(for advanced users).
> > We should give users the option to choose say, a specific compiler,
> > then if they dont choose one we either dont install one or use the
> > default if one is required.
> > 
> > My example is below:
> > 
> > I am a newbie GNOME application developer, I have no idea which IDE to
> > use or which programming language to code with. I found this
> > "Devbuntu", I fired it up and was presented with a simple choice,
> > basic or advanced mode. I was unsure as to which mode i should pick,
> > there was a note saying that if you didnt know which one to choose the
> > you should use basic mode. So i picked basic mode.
> > 
> > It then asked me which desktop environment i am developing for, i said
> > GNOME. It asked me which IDE i would like to use, and if i would like
> > to use an IDE at all, i didnt know so i browsed the list and read the
> > information provided for each IDE, i decided to just use Gedit instead
> > of an IDE. It then did the same for programming languages, i didnt
> > know which one to choose so i read each of the descriptions and ended
> > up choosing python. It then presented me with a summary of my choices
> > and asked me if i would like change anything, i said no. It went ahead
> > and installed everything i had asked for. I then started programming a
> > gnome application and found that devbuntu had been very easy and
> > helpful.
> > 
> > This is how a typical newbie should deal with a GUI. It should be a
> > step by step process, asking only one question at a time. Using only
> > one window. It should be as informative as possible while keeping the
> > information simple.
> > 
> > This is a mixture of both Jays and your idea, what do you think?
> > 
> > > From: charl.wentzel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To: dubuntu-team@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:47:25 +0200
> > > Subject: [Dubuntu-team] GUI design principles
> > > 
> > > Hi Guys
> > > 
> > > Ok, so I thought long and hard about Jay's comments. And are willing
> > to
> > > concede on a few issues, but not completely. So instead of trying to
> > > design a GUI, I thought we should rather agree on a few principles
> > first
> > > and let that be our guide...
> > > 
> > > 1. Simplicity
> > > On this one, your design was better. I agree that my proposal could
> > be
> > > overwhelming to a complete newbie. Just remember that this is a
> > > two-edged sword. 
> > > 
> > > You need to consider simplicity of the back-end as well. Often when
> > you
> > > create a very simple frond-end you add complexity to the back-end.
> > If
> > > the back-end is too complex, you scare of contributors and that
> > could
> > > kill a project.
> > > 
> > > Not saying that it is the case here, but we need to consider both
> > sides.
> > > I'll settle for a good balance between the two even if it requires a
> > few
> > > compromises.
> > > 
> > > 2. Consider experienced users
> > > Remember that you don't stay a newbie for long. As you grow you want
> > to
> > > learn more and want to get into more detail. So far your proposal
> > does
> > > not work for an experience user. 
> > > 
> > > An experienced guy would like to give a few basic requirements and
> > then
> > > look at everything that comes out. But you don't want to simply give
> > > him a list of all the packages that match his criteria, then you're
> > no
> > > better than Synaptic. Hence my categorised display which at least
> > sorts
> > > the packages in logical/manageable chunks.
> > > 
> > > So maybe an option where you can turn "categorisation" on and off.
> > > Maybe be put the packages in the same tree as the categories. Then
> > you
> > > can choose to see just the packages in a long list or grouped in a
> > tree.
> > > This could in fact remove at least one window from my design!
> > > 
> > > And of course to limit the results (like you said),
> > category/application
> > > type could be a search category/requirement as well. But it doesn't
> > > negate the necessity of showing categorised results. 
> > > 
> > > 3. Linux is Choice
> > > This is very important! Be carefull of making too many choices for a
> > > newbie, this goes against one of the core philosophies of Linux.
> > E.g.
> > > if a newbie enters Gnome / C++, you can't simply provide him with
> > > Eclipse as the answer...
> > > 
> > > a. You'll get flamed by the Anjuta and Kdevelop guys for not giving
> > them
> > > a fair chance and you'll make them unwilling to contribute to this
> > > project. 
> > > 
> > > b. Even a newbie will have to choose something! Of course you don't
> > > want to overwhelm him, so forcing him to understand and choose
> > compilers
> > > and debuggers right from the start is a bit much... conceded! But he
> > > needs to at least choose an IDE for himself... even if he chooses to
> > > take them all!!
> > > 
> > > c. It's our responsibility to teach them. In Linux it is best if
> > you've
> > > done your research before you ask a question. We want newbies to
> > "grow
> > > up" with this in mind, in other words: Equip him to make a choice,
> > but
> > > don't choose for him. 
> > > 
> > > So what we're after here is a balance, not an extreme. We'll have to
> > > make it flexible so you can choose the level of detail you want.
> > > 
> > > I don't think these principles should be too hard to agree upon.
> > > 
> > > To be honest, I don't either one of our proposals currently match
> > all of
> > > these requirements... or at least not in what was explained about
> > each.
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > Charl
> > > 
> > > 
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