kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo <miguelangel@xxxxxxx>]

Hi Cirilo!,

   Your proposal seems quite good to me, I think KiCad has a very nice 3D
support, but still weak when it comes to integration to MCAD tools, so some
work on this would be veeery very nice :)

2012/5/26 Cirilo Bernardo <cirilo_bernardo@xxxxxxxxx>

> Hi everyone,  I'm looking for some comments from interested parties on
> some suggestions of mine regarding future directions for 3D models in KiCAD.
>
>
> I have spent some time thinking about the future of 3D models in KiCAD and
> how things need to evolve to provide useful features for users. One feature
> which would be very useful (in fact indispensable in many professional
> shops) is the ability to produce a solid model which a second party can use
> for other purposes such as designing the packaging. To provide such
> functionality to the largest number of users, I have investigated a number
> of free mechanical CAD packages.  I have put some thought into how the
> scheme can be developed so that (1) the current VRML support remains and
> can be extended and (2) others can add support for their favorite CAD.
>

This is an important feature, I've been playing recently with .step in
FreeCAD, and the .step support worked quite well. It also seems to be the
standard for 3D exchange for mechanical CAD.


>
>  What I propose is to maintain a separate set of MCAD tools to achieve the
> desired outcome. This would allow users maximum flexibility in their choice
> of MCAD package (provided they write tools for it) while keeping KiCAD free
> of the burden of maintaining code which is highly specialised for a
> particular MCAD and also free KiCAD of any MCAD related configuration
> options. However, KiCAD will need to provide some minimal support to
> achieve this goal. I'm not asking that developers take on this extra work;
> I'm happy to get stuck into the code some time in the future after I have a
> more substantial proof of concept to present. For now I am posting this to
> get feedback on some proposals before I proceed and possibly come up with a
> scheme which no one likes.
>

I think that the use of a common format (.step, .stl or similar) would be a
good way, just reading and exporting to.



>
>  As I imagine it, KiCAD need only provide minimal support for MCAD
> integration. Specifically, (1) items in the PCB file format specifications
> which allow the user to enter information for MCAD packages and (2) a few
> menu items to allow users to link a particular component to the related
> MCAD files and edit properties such as scale and rotation. Using the old
> PCB format as an example, (1) can be achieved by adding some sections to
> the $SHAPE3D section such as:
>
> $MCAD
>       File 'cad_file.step'
>       Color 'color_file'
>       Offset x,y,z
>       Rotation x,y,z,a
>       Scale x,y,z
> $EndMCAD
>

Look at the new s-expr file format (kicad_plugin.cpp file inside pcbnew
directory),

I think that also embedded STEP/STL/VRML models inside the library parts or
PCB would be an advantage, as you can share your PCB or library without the
need to keep a separate file with the 3D model.


>
> A number of MCAD sections can exist within the SHAPE3D section to allow
> support for multiple CAD formats. For example, the list of MCAD sections
> may contain the ubiquitous 'step' model as well as a file for, say, FreeCAD
> - it will be up to the (non-KiCAD) tools to decide which models it can make
> use of and which one is best to use.
>
>
In fact, as FreeCAD is deeply python based, it should not be complicate to
even write a pcbnew file reader (that reads the PCB basic data + linked CAD
models)


> One step towards supporting MCAD is to define a directory heirarchy which
> can be used by any external MCAD tool. I present a suggestion below and
> would appreciate any comments.
>
> 1. TOP LEVEL 3D MODEL DIRECTORY STRUCTURE
> The current organization (or lack thereof) of the 3D models directory
> needs some work in order to easily support intergration of external tools.
> I propose the following structure:
>
>     mcad: top level directory
>     |
>     +--colors: color files; these may be shared by vrml as well as any
> MCAD;
>     |           These files should describe a generic surface appearance
> via
>     |           parameters such as specular and diffuse reflectance,
>     |           transparency and so on. The use of a specified color format
>     |           and named color schemesallows better consistency of
> appearance
>     |           regardless of the 3Dmodel used
>     |
>     +--vrml: top directory for VRML models
>     |
>     +--step: top directory for STEP models
>     |
>     +--freecad: top directory for FreeCAD models
>     |
>     +--somecad: top directory for some other supported CAD; supporting a
>         particular CAD consists of putting  a top directory under 'mcad',
>         putting models into that directory or its subdirectories, and of
>         course writing the CAD-specific PCB-to-MCAD tools.
>
>
You mean the directories that are bundled with KiCad, right?

2. CAD Directory Structure
> Users like some form of consistency; having a wildly different directory
> structure for the VRML models and STEP models would ultimately result in a
> frustrating mess for anyone who would like to work with a different 3D
> model. I would like to propose the following MCAD directory structure; this
> is
> only a proposal for consistency at the top level; the lower levels must
> necessarily be divided to maintain a neat navigable structure but the huge
> variety of parts makes it difficult to specify a deeper directory structure
> than what I present here.
>
>     somecad: top level MCAD directory (ex. 'vrml' or 'freecad')
>     |
>     +--thru: through-hole components
>     |  |
>     |  +--res: resistors
>     |  |
>     |  +--cap: capacitors
>     |  |
>     |  +--ind: inductors
>     |  |
>     |  +--dio: diodes
>     |  |
>     |  +--rly: relays
>     |  |
>     |  +--skt: sockets and carriers
>     |  |
>     |  +--misc: miscellaneous packages
>     |  |
>     |  +--con: top directory for thru-connectors
>     |  |
>     |  +--pkg: generic packages such as TO-3, TO-92, TO-220 and so on
>     |     |
>     |     +--transistor: various transistor packages
>     |     |
>     |     +--dil: dil packages
>     |     |
>     |     +--sil: sil packages
>     |
>     +--smd: SMD packages
>        |
>        +--con: SMD connectors
>        |
>        +--dis: Discrete components such as Flat Chip (for example 0603),
> MELF,
>        |            molded Tantalum caps, SOT-n, DPAK, SOD80
>        |
>        +--soic: Small Outline IC
>        |
>        +--fp: Flat Pack (does anyone still use it?)
>        |
>        +--qfp: Quad Flat Pack
>        |
>        +--cc: Chip Carrier varieties (leaded and leadless)
>        |
>        +--tsop: Thin Small Outline Package
>        |
>        +--pga: Pin Grid Array
>        |
>        +--bga: Ball Grid Array
>        |
>        +--flip: 'Flip Chip' (leadless)
>        |
>        +--skt: sockets, for example a leaded carrier socket
>
>  And that's about it.  Some reorganization of the existing VRML files is
> required and in the future some level of support will be required from the
> KiCAD suite so that the CAD model can be specified in the PCB file format.
> People who want to use non-free models can follow this directory structure
> and provide their own set of models in a fashion similar to the TeX
> directory structure. I would appreciate any feedback on the proposed scheme.
>
> it makes sense :)


> Other comments (though unrelated to what has been proposed above):
>
>  I have already investigated a number of free CAD packages and I have
> settled on FreeCAD since (a) it can produce STEP files (personally I like
> BRL-CAD much more but it does not export to STEP or IGES) and (b) support
> for drawings is being developed - for small shops and hobbyists who may
> wish to use a free tool to do all their mechanical manufacturing and
> assembly drawings, this seems the way to go.
>

It has a high python integration degree, as I expect KiCad will have soon
(kicad scripting branch), so that means easier interaction.


>
>  I am working on my demonstration of the concept and have produced
> simplistic STEP assemblies which I have successfully imported into
> SolidWorks and checked for correctness. I intend to work with the old PCB
> format for my demonstrator and I want to get the code to a stage where
> people can edit their existing PCB files (by hand, just to check out the
> tool) and run the tool to generate a STEP file before I present the actual
> concept


Wow, that's great? please let me know when it's available, I'd like to try
it :-)

That could also lead to very nice renders via freecad->povray->


> demonstration to people. I hope by that stage that the new PCB file format
> would be well tested and I can easily adapt the tools to work with the new
> format.  If enough people are interested in the tool I intend to produce
> free MCAD models and slowly populate the directory structure to make the
> tool useful to more people. At the start I expect that people should at
> least be able to set up their own directory structure with non-free STEP
> models and quickly export a usable STEP assembly.




> However, I believe that in the
>  long-term, using free MCAD models contributed by users will be the way to
> go; I made extremely simple hand-assembled models using FreeCAD and STEP
> models available from RS Components and boards containing literally only a
> handful of components blows out to tens of MB - that suggests to me that a
> realistic simple board with a mere 200 components will result in a
> ridiculous size STEP assembly if people rely on the STEP files provided by
> suppliers like RS; using native CAD formats for the models should hopefully
> produce much more sensible STEP files.
>

I've been lately working to convert STEP(freecad)->STL(wings3D)->VRML and
it worked quite well, but it's painful, and the original model size (from
step) was totally lost.

I think that the 3D model placement method in kicad could also be quite
enhanced (now you modify the coordinates and then reload the 3D view), may
be some simple hotkeys to move on axis and rotate would make the thing much
more user friendly (I was planning to setup a little patch at some time but
I want to finish my scripting-footpring-wizard first).




>
> - Cirilo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>



-- 

Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo
http://www.nbee.es
+34 636 52 25 69
skype: ajoajoajo