kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Adam Wolf <adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Carl and other library folks,

I understand you had to make the change, and I'm certain it took hard work
to make everything match, and I'm glad that the libraries are better now,
but I hate the fact that many, many users will never be notified of this
board-breaking change, and we have absolutely no way of notifying them.

Rather than make a github-plugin specific change that will only alert users
about changes in footprints, I think we should see if we can quickly code a
dialog that checks a location on kicad-pcb.org for news, and display it on
KiCad startup by default if it has changed.  I would like to get this in
before the stable release, but I know we're already in feature freeze.
Wayne, what do you think?

Adam Wolf
Cofounder and Engineer
Wayne and Layne, LLC

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:25 PM, Carl Poirier <carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

> Hi Adam,
>
> Indeed, those who want to be sure nothing changes until they want so are
> better to make a local copy. With the new Footprint Libraries Wizard, users
> are just a few clicks away from it with the checkbox "Save a local copy
> to". Using the libraries directly from Github is bleeding-edge, but as you
> said the problem arises from the fact that we have symbols installed
> locally and footprints fetched from Github. If both are handled the same
> way, either way it is, it will be fine. And again this causes problems only
> for aspects of libraries that have to be in sync - such as pin numbers. The
> other things that have to be in sync are the 3D models. That's why many
> folks, including me, have suggested
> <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg14793.html> to move the
> 3D model inside the .pretty library. Maybe it could be done elegantly, but
> unfortunately I'm not the one who has enough time to put in this.
>
> As for the other libraries, we're slowly getting to a stable and
> consistent state. Besides eradicating the special.lib library, I can't
> think of another disruptive change that will happen soon. I'm not saying
> there will be none, just that there are none planned. We go as our time
> permits.
>
> As for why people would use KiCad's libraries, I'd say because they can be
> assured at least two librarians go over a suggested change to iron out
> errors. Also because new parts are constantly thrown into the mix as well
> so the libraries are getting more complete over time. As for the quality of
> the pre-github era libraries, nothing can be vouched. We're fixing things
> as we find them. What's great is that with Github, it's very easy for those
> people in doubt about KiCad's libraries to contribute and make them better
> if they think there is room for it.
>
> I should have warned in advance here for this change specifically to make
> sure everyone was aware. I should have not relied on the fact that no one
> disagreed days ago about having disruptive changes in general. Besides
> that, I'm not sure what more could have been done.
>
> Regards,
>
> Carl
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Adam Wolf <adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I have had multiple people contact me today saying, "Why would I ever use
>> KiCad's libraries again?"
>>
>> I had no idea before your email today that diodes were going to change,
>> and I follow the dev list daily, and I'm the packager for the OS X
>> nightlies.
>>
>> We're in this together.  I don't have time to check yet another place for
>> KiCad changes.
>>
>> After I think about this some more, I'm going to start another thread on
>> what this means for the OS X nightlies.  By having half the data burned in,
>> and half the data updated live, this is going to continue to happen.
>> People are going to make bad boards, and if I would have bundled the
>> footprints with the nightlies and not made Github the default, this
>> wouldn't have happened.
>>
>> Most of the other packages are like this, right?
>>
>> Adam Wolf
>>
>> Cofounder and Engineer
>>
>> Wayne and Layne, LLC
>>
>> (resending from an email that can post to kicad-dev...)
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Adam Wolf <adamwwolf@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> I have had multiple people contact me today saying, "Why would I ever
>>> use KiCad's libraries again?"
>>>
>>> I had no idea before your email today that diodes were going to change,
>>> and I follow the dev list daily, and I'm the packager for the OS X
>>> nightlies.
>>>
>>> We're in this together.  I don't have time to check yet another place
>>> for KiCad changes.
>>>
>>> After I think about this some more, I'm going to start another thread on
>>> what this means for the OS X nightlies.  By having half the data burned in,
>>> and half the data updated live, this is going to continue to happen.
>>> People are going to make bad boards, and if I would have bundled the
>>> footprints with the nightlies and not made Github the default, this
>>> wouldn't have happened.
>>>
>>> Most of the other packages are like this, right?
>>>
>>> Adam Wolf
>>>
>>> Cofounder and Engineer
>>>
>>> Wayne and Layne, LLC
>>>
>>> On Apr 24, 2015 7:01 PM, "Carl Poirier" <carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Then you should have come by and discussed the matter on Github. The
>>>> issues and pull requests about the diodes had been open for a while now and
>>>> open for comments. To get updates in time about the changes proposed, I
>>>> suggest you watch this repository
>>>> <https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-library>.
>>>>
>>>> If you have suggestions for the next similar situation, I'm listening.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:55 PM, Garth Corral <gcorral@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don’t object to what you’re doing, just how it’s being done.  You
>>>>> don’t think this case is just a little bit special?  Last time things were
>>>>> pretty obviously broken with the change, in this case they’re not.  You’ve
>>>>> swapped out a symbol for something that’s basically the same except, oh, by
>>>>> the way, all your diodes are reversed.  Am I misunderstanding this change?
>>>>> Is this not true?
>>>>>
>>>>> Garth
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 24, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Carl Poirier <carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> KiCad's libraries were filled without any rules throughout time. All
>>>>> these changes are necessary to have something consistent. Kerusey Karyu
>>>>> warned people one month ago on the mailing list
>>>>> <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg17476.html> that we
>>>>> were in the process of moving things around. No one complained. Now why
>>>>> when we take action people wake up all of a sudden?
>>>>>
>>>>> The sooner we get things straight, the better it is. If we wait too
>>>>> much, it will be too late. Before issuing the stable release sounds like an
>>>>> appropriate moment to land the disruptive changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, I'm about to eradicate the special.lib library, as planned for now
>>>>> over one month <https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-library/issues/153>, a
>>>>> great initiative taken by Kerusey.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Garth Corral <gcorral@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This plan to deprecate the old diode type seems… uh... poorly thought
>>>>>> out.  Yanking these out from under everyone and every project in exiistence
>>>>>> and then sending out a message that says, “hey, guess what I did?” doesn’t
>>>>>> seem like the best way to handle this.  It is most certainly not the way to
>>>>>> win converts to kicad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Garth
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Carl Poirier <carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thiadmer, your proposal would require to duplicate every .pretty
>>>>>> repository for every stable release. And I believe the schematics won't
>>>>>> change because of the cache.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another solution would be to modify the github plugin to fetch a
>>>>>> branch in particular instead of the master. Then, we could create one
>>>>>> branch in each .pretty repository that would remain in the state at the
>>>>>> time of the stable release.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That, or we ship the stable release with local .pretty repositories
>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Thiadmer Riemersma <
>>>>>> thiadmer.riemersma@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the stable release, I would vote for backward compatibility:
>>>>>>> have "deprecated" libraries with the diodes as they are right now
>>>>>>> (footprints + symbols), plus "standards-compliant" libraries with the
>>>>>>> cathode at pin 1 and the anode at pin 2. It would not be good if old
>>>>>>> schematics change just because they are loaded in a new version of KiCad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Carl Poirier <
>>>>>>> carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe this could be implemented for the stable release.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Bob Gustafson <bobgus@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Sounds professional.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob G
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 04/24/2015 12:24 PM, Adam Wolf wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For future things like this, what do people think of a webview
>>>>>>>>> that pops up on startup after checking a site for alerts?
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2015 12:14 PM, "Carl Poirier" <carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All installations need a local kicad-library, not just OS X. They
>>>>>>>>>> are all in the same situation. The next OS X nightly will be good if you
>>>>>>>>>> pull the latest kicad-libary for the build.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Kerusey Karyu will announce the change on the users group on
>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo to warn people. If anyone has an account and wants to forward my
>>>>>>>>>> message before he does, feel free to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Adam Wolf <
>>>>>>>>>> adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So the OSX builds use Github by default for footprints, and have
>>>>>>>>>>> symbols "baked in" at build time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Every OS X nightly build is going to produce bad boards, and
>>>>>>>>>>> there's no way to tell users to update or inform them about this change
>>>>>>>>>>> through the program at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish I would have known about this earlier.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Adam Wolf
>>>>>>>>>>> Cofounder and Engineer
>>>>>>>>>>> Wayne and Layne
>>>>>>>>>>>  On Apr 24, 2015 11:42 AM, "Carl Poirier" <
>>>>>>>>>>> carl.poirier.2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  This is simply to warn you that all diodes in KiCad's
>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries have seen their pin numbers swapped. This is to be in line with
>>>>>>>>>>>> most other software and the IPC standard as well, which states that cathode
>>>>>>>>>>>> should be pin 1. This work is courtesy of the newest librarian, Ricardo
>>>>>>>>>>>> Crudo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  If you are using Github libraries directly, the only thing
>>>>>>>>>>>> you will have left to do is update your schematic libraries to the latest
>>>>>>>>>>>> revision of https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-library before
>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing your work. If you have a local copy of the footprint
>>>>>>>>>>>> repositories, then when you are ready you will be able to pull the changes
>>>>>>>>>>>> for both the schematic libraries and the affected footprint libraries:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  1. Diodes_SMD.pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/KiCad/Diodes_SMD.pretty>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Diodes_ThroughHole.pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/KiCad/Diodes_ThroughHole.pretty>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. LEDs.pretty <https://github.com/KiCad/LEDs.pretty>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Thank you for your understanding and sorry for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> inconvenience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Carl Poirier
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>
>