kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Adam Wolf <adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

If anyone is interested, I could quickly spin up a nightly build series
with these icons enabled.  Let me know.

Adam Wolf
On Jul 30, 2015 7:59 AM, "Johannes Maibaum" <jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Good to know that Apple changed their minds once again…
>
> As I said, I do not mind them being enabled again. But perhaps it might be
> a good idea for our icon designers to take a look at all icons that are
> shown in the menus in order to see if they fulfill the guideline Bernhard
> quoted. I think that this would be of value for users on all platforms, not
> only OSX.
>
> I often fail to see the „significant value“ tiny icons add to text, but as
> this might end up in a religious fight, and this is not what I intend, I
> will stop arguing right now. I think I made my point clear and, once again,
> I’m OK with any decision in this regard.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Johannes
>
> > Am 30.07.2015 um 14:12 schrieb Collin Anderson <metacollin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >:
> >
> > Thanks for the clear answers guys.  And based on Johannes Malbaum's
> post, this is clearly not the 'right or wrong' issue I mistakingly took it
> for, but may largely be mainly a personal preference.  I find the icons
> very useful, but this is hardly universal, and I'm sure other people find
> them distracting or otherwise a nuisance as well.  I'd rather not force my
> icon-ist beliefs on others, and I didn't realize isn't wasn't only an OS X
> issue.
> >
> > Perhaps a good solution would be to remove this as a build option all
> together and simply make it an option within the programs themselves (or
> just in the master kicad launcher).  I'm looking through the code it would
> not appear that this needs to be a build-time decision.
> >
> > Thoughts? Er, I'm volunteering to do this, but there are a few ways to
> go about it, and could be done in a way that was apple specific, or not.
> At the barest level, I was considering an entry in the
> ~/Library/kicad/kicad file, UseMenuIcons=(0 or 1).   This would override
> whatever the default behavior is, but if the entry is not present, then the
> default is observed.
> >
> > Interface-wise, I was thinking a simple menu item in the KiCad
> preferences menu that can be checked or unchecked, would be uninvasive
> enough and not disturb anything anywhere else. The change would not be
> immediate, but require relaunching programs as needed.
> >
> > Those are just my initial rough thoughts, but I'd love to hear if people
> are in general for or against the idea overall, and if not, what they think
> of my proposed implementation.
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
> >
> >> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:33 AM, Nick Østergaard <oe.nick@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yep, also note that the GTK people also tried to follow these OS X
> >> guidelines, so I don't actually have icons on my desktop on linux, GTK
> >> forces it off in some configurations.  But I think they have also
> >> realised that they are actually useful. So this is not only on OS X.
> >>
> >> I am too lazy to find some references on this for GTK, but if you are
> >> interested you can ask google.
> >>
> >> 2015-07-30 13:28 GMT+02:00 Johannes Maibaum <jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx>:
> >>> Hello Collin,
> >>>
> >>> As far as I remember, menu icons are disabled on OSX in order to
> conform
> >>> with Apple's UI guidelines that favor text-only menus over additional
> icons.
> >>>
> >>> So while there might be no technical issue with enabling icons for OSX
> too
> >>> (I know that it worked years ago, when they were enabled by default), I
> >>> think that the main reason for disabling them is the "native OSX user"
> who
> >>> is used to text-only menus from all other applications and might find
> icons
> >>> distractive.
> >>>
> >>> From my point of view, cross-platform should not mean "has to look the
> same
> >>> on all platforms", but rather "has to work on all supported platforms,
> but
> >>> not violate its standard UI policies".
> >>>
> >>> I understand that menu icons are a rather minor "violation" and I
> would not
> >>> mind if they were re-enabled. But if there is a definite decision to
> make,
> >>> my vote would go to not enabling them again. Personally, I find icons
> in
> >>> menus distractive, if recognizable at all at such small sizes, so I
> >>> eventually always fall back to reading the text (this also holds true
> for
> >>> context menus, where icons are still enabled). Menu icons, for me, are
> just
> >>> visual clutter that take away screen space (I am often working on a 13
> inch
> >>> MBP).
> >>>
> >>> Just my .02.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Johannes
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> >>> Von: Collin Anderson
> >>> Datum:30.07.2015 12:53 (GMT+01:00)
> >>> An: KiCad Developers
> >>> Betreff: [Kicad-developers] Can we enable menu icons on OS X?
> >>>
> >>> Can anyone explain why menu icons are enabled on all platforms except
> OS X?
> >>> I've looked through the menuhelper.h code and the CMake build files,
> and all
> >>> I can find is reference to it being disabled on OS X by default, but
> the
> >>> reason why is not given anywhere I can find.
> >>>
> >>> I've been using KiCad for months on OS X and I force the menu icons on
> every
> >>> time, and there are no issues.  They are very helpful from a usage
> >>> standpoint and beyond that, it is the interface I'm used to when I use
> KiCad
> >>> in Debian, and my coworkers in in Windows.  It's both annoying and
> >>> distressing to suddenly lose all those visual cues but only on the OS X
> >>> platform.  It would be understandable if there was some sort of issue,
> or
> >>> they didn't work right on OS X, but that's not the case.
> >>>
> >>> Regardless, as it stands now, KiCad's interface is not platform
> agnostic,
> >>> which is something that ought to be a priority for any software
> claiming to
> >>> be cross-platform.
> >>>
> >>> Can we simply comment out, or better, remove, the line in the root
> >>> CMakeLists file that goes out of its way to disable menus, but only if
> >>> __APPLE__?  I'll even do it myself and make a merge quest, if its
> simply a
> >>> matter of no one having the time.
> >>>
> >>> I, like many users I suspect, find I rely on icons and visual cues
> much more
> >>> than actual text of menu and contextual menu items.  I have no choice
> but to
> >>> build KiCad (which takes a long time on my machine) if I want the
> latest dev
> >>> build in a usable (and truly cross platform) state.  I DO do his
> regularly,
> >>> but sometimes I do need it quick and it would be nice if I could take
> >>> advantage of Adam Wolf's generously provided nightly builds, but since
> the
> >>> default build settings disable menu icons, it largely becomes time
> spent
> >>> discovering how much I actually rely on the menu icons, rather than
> spent on
> >>> electronic design.
> >>>
> >>> If I've missed something, and there IS a good reason for breaking
> KiCad's
> >>> cross platform consistency, I'd love to know - I'll see if I can fix
> the
> >>> issue and file a merge proposal.  And if I can't I'll at least add that
> >>> reason in the comments around the relevant code, since it requires
> >>> justification (in my humble opinion, anyway, for what little that is
> worth
> >>> ;)   )
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >
> >
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>
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