kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Tomasz Wlostowski <Tomasz.Wlostowski@xxxxxxx>]

Hi Heikki,

Sorry for top-posting (answering from a webmail).

We are very happy that you are working on the via stitching tool, but let's stick to the roadmap that Wayne proposed (see https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/blob/master/Documentation/development/road-map-r5.md). If you look at the via stitching paragraph, there are 5 points:

- Connection propagation fix for the current issue of vias that are not connected to tracks being tagged as unassigned and removed.
- Develop more robust connectivity checking algorithm.
- Improve the DRC to handle cases of orphaned vias.
- Create a UI element to allow the user to select a net from the list of valid nets.
- Manual via placement tool.

Concerning point 1), we can take Steven's patch to make Kicad retain the net codes of loose vias, also assuming that vias/track never get their net codes propagated from zones.
Points 2) and 3) are taken care of by the new connectivity check algorithm that I'm working on. It handles all cases of zones connected with vias (including multiple overlapping zones).

The last two points could be yours. We need to extend the properties dialog for tracks/vias with a combobox that lets the user pick the net from the list of valid nets in the design. Then, we need a manual via placement tool, but *for the GAL canvas*, both in pcbnew and the footprint editor. We should not add any new features to the legacy one, as this slows down our migration to GAL. I agree that the newly placed vias should take their nets from already existing items (that is zones, pads, tracks and other vias), but only during placement. The priority IMHO should be currently selected layer, followed by other visible copper layers according to the rendering order. Furthermore, the via placement tool should provide a hotkey and an R-Click menu access to the properties dialog, so that the user can set the via dimensions and net while in placement mode.

Let us know if you're interested in developing these features. We're having a Kicad hackathon right now, so feel free to join us on the IRC (we're here until Monday evening, all time on Kicad). We can also help you with the  GAL stuff. The PlacePad() tool in the footprint editor is IMHO a good starting point.

Cheers,
Tom






________________________________
From: Kicad-developers [kicad-developers-bounces+tomasz.wlostowski=cern.ch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Heikki Pulkkinen [hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 29 October 2016 06:58
To: Wayne Stambaugh
Cc: kicad-developers
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] Via Stitching


Hi Wayne,

I think that there is two places when user is "wrong" wit his/her will. One is when there are not at least two pours to connect with and second is that there must be at least one pad in connection chain. If antennas are user will, it is better create component. I might be wrong, but that is how I think it. I did some experimental development in my code which now keeps vias netcodes Steven's ideas way, and take care of that there is connected pad. These two videos show how that works. I try more other things when I am back home again.

Regards

Heikki

https://youtu.be/wXdVl4WXCJ8
https://youtu.be/5qe-XnVJwXs

27.10.2016 1.47 "Wayne Stambaugh" <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>> kirjoitti:
I'm just not comfortable with the connection algorithm reassigning via
net codes to a zone's net code based on the zone/via intersection.  This
puts the responsibility of the connection on the project rather than the
user.  I'm OK if we suggest a net when the user is placing vias but the
user has the final say and the via net code does not change unless the
user explicitly changes it.  I don't now how to make it any clearer than
that.  Someone would have to make a really impressive argument (read
doctoral thesis) as to why we should allow kicad to determine
connectivity rather than the user.

On 10/25/2016 1:54 AM, Heikki Pulkkinen wrote:
> Thanks Wayne to look at this and Steven for asking about connection logic.
>
> It is good to try explain what did you thought  last summer. It clearer
> things.
>
> There are main rule which connects top and bottom layer and second rule
> connecting inner layers. And now I think that main rule is useless,
> because second rule do all this connecting via to first two zones with
> same netcode. This works well as far as zones are up the date. And that
> is not always true. For example in DRC, if you forgot to refill zones
> before running DRC, vias can corrupted to wrong net. Thats why running
> first refilling zones in DRC, keeps vias right connected.
> I found two another, and there might be more, situation when user can
> accidentally damage connection. Cleanup and saving a board. Saving is
> not that broblem, but opening is. But I have solution of them. Just
> running zone filling algorithm before running ratsnest algorithm.
> But usually, when working with via stitching, user keeps zones up to
> date running refill to see what he or she have done. I know there is
> always better solutions, but I can manage this at the moment before
> there are  official one. I know, if algorithm is different than mine it
> does not ruin my designs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Heikki
>
>
> 24.10.2016 23.58 "Wayne Stambaugh" <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>>> kirjoitti:
>
>     I finally had a chance to look at this patch and I have similar
>     concerns.  I thought I was pretty clear about *not* being comfortable
>     with making assumptions about via zone connections and always using the
>     assigned net code.  I'm a bit concerned with the connection testing and
>     it's decision to change a via's net code depending on which zone(s) that
>     it intersects.  I see this as an unacceptable risk for kicad to assume.
>     I would rather put the responsibility in hands of the user and just have
>     kicad complain when there is a drc issue.
>
>     Please configure your editor to clean up trailing white space and fix
>     the other coding policy errors.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Wayne
>
>     On 10/23/2016 10:44 PM, Strontium wrote:
>     > Hello Heikki,
>     >
>     > Can you explain the logic you are using to determine the net of
>     the vias
>     > during DRC reconnect?  It looks like you are only considering the top
>     > and bottom layer, but stitching vias may be stitching internal layers?
>     >
>     > Steven
>     >
>     >
>     > On 23/10/16 21:48, Heikki Pulkkinen wrote:
>     >> Hi Wayne and all,
>     >>
>     >> About that my suggestion of Via Stitching. I do some tests and found
>     >> that if DRC first fill zones and then do tests it does not break
>     >> anything. if you forgot to Fill or Refill zoenes before running DRC.
>     >>
>     >> Regards
>     >>
>     >> Heikki
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Heikki Pulkkinen
>     <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     >> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>     Hi Wayne,
>     >>
>     >>     If you try this, I send the last full patch of that Via
>     Stitching.
>     >>     Do not care other patches in mailing list, they are more or less
>     >>     incomplete.
>     >>
>     >>     Regards
>     >>
>     >>     Heikki
>     >>
>     >>     On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Wayne Stambaugh
>     >>     <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>         I will look at when I get a chance.  When that will be I
>     >>         cannot say for
>     >>         sure.  I've just been really busy.  I will try to get around
>     >>         to it this
>     >>         weekend.
>     >>
>     >>         Cheers,
>     >>
>     >>         Wayne
>     >>
>     >>         On 10/17/2016 3:40 PM, Jakub Kozdon wrote:
>     >>         > Hi, it looks usable.
>     >>         >
>     >>         > Don't know if it is visible for all, but Wayne, what do you
>     >>         think about it?
>     >>         >
>     >>         > Jakub
>     >>         >
>     >>         > Dne 16.10.2016 v 19:23 Heikki Pulkkinen napsal(a):
>     >>         >> Hi,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >> I add array feature to my Via Stitching. And an another
>     >>         slowly video
>     >>         >> to watch.
>     >>         >> https://youtu.be/28nfoZPg2bg
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >> Full fixed patch and array test patch. More work have
>     to be
>     >>         done, but
>     >>         >> this was easy start.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >> Regards
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >> Heikki
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Heikki Pulkkinen
>     >>         <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         >> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>     Hi,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>     Here is demovideo about via stitching. It is slowly,
>     >>         because of
>     >>         >>     slowly machine. I do some development too, so full
>     patch is
>     >>         >>     attached too.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>     On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Marcos Chaparro
>     >>         >>     <nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>>>>>
>     >>         wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>         Hi Heikki,
>     >>         >>         is there any chance to make some screenshots or
>     >>         video about
>     >>         >>         this? Some of us do compile kicad to get the
>     latest and
>     >>         >>         greatest but never applied a patch for a
>     particular
>     >>         feature.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>         Regards
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>         Marcos
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>         On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Heikki Pulkkinen
>     >>         >>         <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>             Hi,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>             Putting back that my via stitching tool to
>     >>         routing tool.
>     >>         >>             It is better that way, I think. All via tools
>     >>         are in same
>     >>         >>             place, and it adds vias to pours only from
>     hotkeys.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>             On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Heikki
>     Pulkkinen
>     >>         >>             <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                 Hi,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                 Finally Via Stitching without tracks is at
>     >>         zone tool.
>     >>         >>                 I tested it little bit, but more tests are
>     >>         needed.
>     >>         >>                 This patch replace all other patches. Do
>     >>         not use them,
>     >>         >>                 use only this patch. I think this is worth
>     >>         of try. I
>     >>         >>                 am going to use it anyway, even if it do
>     >>         not get any
>     >>         >>                 acceptance. First patch is for Fedora
>     >>         users. It makes
>     >>         >>                 possible to build Kicad in Fedora release
>     >>         wxWidgets
>     >>         >>                 libs whitout building wxWidget from
>     source.
>     >>         I do not
>     >>         >>                 know has anybody else that problem,
>     but I had.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                 Heikki
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                 On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Heikki
>     >>         Pulkkinen
>     >>         >>                 <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                     Hi
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                     And I really practice. I made
>     >>         improvement and
>     >>         >>                     forgot to copy all. So improvement is
>     >>         in these two
>     >>         >>                     patches. I hope this suggestion is
>     >>         accepted as a
>     >>         >>                     new feature.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                     Heikki
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                     On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:31 PM,
>     Heikki
>     >>         Pulkkinen
>     >>         >>                     <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>>
>     >>         >>                     wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                         Hi,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                         As in  practice, I made a patch
>     >>         file of my
>     >>         >>                         changes Not only diifs. It is
>     >>         SHIFT-ALT-V
>     >>         >>                         hotkey whitch make buried and
>     blind
>     >>         vias, as
>     >>         >>                         it is in routing too.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                         Heikki
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                         On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:25
>     PM, Heikki
>     >>         >>                         Pulkkinen <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         >>                         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                             Hi,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                             I made some improvements to my
>     >>         patch of
>     >>         >>                             via stitching. Now you can
>     just
>     >>         point
>     >>         >>                             copper pour place and press V,
>     >>         it make
>     >>         >>                             trough via. If you press
>     >>         SHIFT+CTRL+V it
>     >>         >>                             make buried or blind via.It
>     >>         does not
>     >>         >>                             change working layer. Only
>     when
>     >>         you place
>     >>         >>                             buried or blind via from
>     >>         different layer
>     >>         >>                             than it's layer pair is. I
>     >>         think that it
>     >>         >>                             is quite easy to shoot board
>     >>         full of
>     >>         >>                             copper pours connecting
>     vias. It is
>     >>         >>                             possible to remove connecting
>     >>         tracks from
>     >>         >>                             old designs. Just delete
>     >>         connection from
>     >>         >>                             pad and use clenup. Only have
>     >>         to remember
>     >>         >>                             that if there are not at least
>     >>         two copper
>     >>         >>                             pours in same netcode in
>     >>         different layers
>     >>         >>                             via is deleted too. Any
>     support?
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                             Heikki
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                             On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 3:06
>     >>         PM, Heikki
>     >>         >>                             Pulkkinen
>     <hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>
>     >>         <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>     >>         >>                             <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>
>     <mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:hei6mail@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                                 Hi everybody,
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                                 This is my suggestion to
>     >>         via stitching
>     >>         >>                                 without any tracks. It
>     connects
>     >>         >>                                 unconnected vias in
>     >>         different copper
>     >>         >>                                 pours witch has same
>     >>         netcode. Adding
>     >>         >>                                 vias is normal routing
>     >>         process without
>     >>         >>                                 routing tracks. Start -
>     >>         Change Layer -
>     >>         >>                                 End. Tool that do
>     those things
>     >>         >>                                 automatically would be
>     >>         good, so you
>     >>         >>                                 can add all vias in same
>     >>         layer. After
>     >>         >>                                 adding vias, run "Fill or
>     >>         Refill All
>     >>         >>                                 Zones" that "Clenup tracks
>     >>         and vias"
>     >>         >>                                 do not remove partly
>     >>         connected vias.
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>                                 Heikki
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
>     >>         >>
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