kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>]

It's hell getting old! :)

On 2/21/2017 6:43 PM, Simon Wells wrote:
> haha your advanced life experience must be getting to you.... you even
> commented on it when it was last bought up on the list
> https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg23387.html
> 
> On 22 February 2017 at 12:39, Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Why don't I remember that?  It must not have been that way for very
>> long.  In any event, I'm actually fine with changing it to a single left
>> click.  We could always undo it if user's absolutely hate it.
>>
>> On 2/21/2017 1:43 PM, Simon Wells wrote:
>>> there was a time where it was single click changes colour and there
>>> were no complaints that i saw. JP changed it without consultation or
>>> comment on the list
>>>
>>> On 22 February 2017 at 07:30, Chris Pavlina <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 01:26:17PM -0500, Jon Evans wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, this is going to be a problem any time there is a situation where
>>>>> KiCad does it differently than "the standard", but has been doing it that
>>>>> way forever.  No easy fix that pleases both the old users and the new
>>>>> users.  Other open source software has had this problem too (GIMP, etc)
>>>>
>>>> A part of me really wants to fork KiCad, spend a year or so removing ALL
>>>> these silly KiCadisms that "users will howl about", and release it as a
>>>> new de-crustified project with the understanding that everything will be
>>>> different because everything was stupid before. I bet *checks sofa*
>>>> $3.24 that users would flock to it.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, that part of me lives in a fantasy world where days have 48 hours
>>>> and I get paid megabucks to sit on my butt.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My own thoughts on the matter are that I want to never have to change layer
>>>>> using the layer picker, and always have it hidden.  Based on the behavior
>>>>> of other tools I have used, I think that it is possible to greatly reduce
>>>>> the need to manually change layers, and especially to do so with the mouse
>>>>> rather than a hotkey.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Jon
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can just hear users howling already when they left click the color
>>>>>> swatch thinking that they are selecting the layer and then have to
>>>>>> dismiss the color select dialog to continue working.  If we cannot come
>>>>>> up with a better solution, it may be best to leave sleeping dogs lie.  I
>>>>>> wonder how many of the 75% of voters in the poll would response to
>>>>>> having to dismiss the color selection dialog every time they
>>>>>> inadvertently left clicked the color button?  This may be a case of
>>>>>> ignorance being bliss.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/21/2017 12:54 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
>>>>>>> FWIW, this is what my expecations were as a new user when I started with
>>>>>>> KiCad (for what would happen with a single left-click) based on how
>>>>>>> things work in other applications with layer managers I have used (ECAD,
>>>>>>> graphics, etc):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/Euh2Gjwl.png
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Chris Pavlina <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> <mailto:pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     By the way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     https://forum.kicad.info/t/developer-feedback-poll-layer-
>>>>>> manager/5421 <https://forum.kicad.info/t/developer-feedback-poll-layer-
>>>>>> manager/5421>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Feel free to add your own responses. The results look pretty
>>>>>> conclusive
>>>>>>>     right now ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:40:05AM -0500, Chris Pavlina wrote:
>>>>>>>     > Sent to wrong recipient.
>>>>>>>     >
>>>>>>>     > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:38:43AM -0500, Chris Pavlina wrote:
>>>>>>>     > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 05:24:14PM +0100, jp charras wrote:
>>>>>>>     > > > Le 21/02/2017 à 16:07, Chris Pavlina a écrit :
>>>>>>>     > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 09:35:34AM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>     > > > >> My only issue with this change is that the tooltip letting
>>>>>>>     the user know
>>>>>>>     > > > >> that a left button double click or a middle button click
>>>>>>>     would allow
>>>>>>>     > > > >> them to change the color is gone.  Other than that, it
>>>>>>>     looks great.  I
>>>>>>>     > > > >> like the use of Bind instead of Connect.  Bind has a much
>>>>>>>     cleaner
>>>>>>>     > > > >> interface than Connect and according to the wx folks is the
>>>>>>>     proper way
>>>>>>>     > > > >> to handle events.
>>>>>>>     > > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > > The tooltip is useless, nobody is going to hover over them
>>>>>>>     for long
>>>>>>>     > > > > enough to see it. I was just talking to someone this morning
>>>>>>>     who never
>>>>>>>     > > > > found the tooltip because he was too busy clicking on the
>>>>>>>     buttons to
>>>>>>>     > > > > make them work.
>>>>>>>     > > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > > Every other color well in every other application opens its
>>>>>>>     selection
>>>>>>>     > > > > dialog with a single left click. Why can't ours?
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > First you have to decide if the main purpose is to select the
>>>>>>>     active layer or to change the color layer.
>>>>>>>     > > > The answer will give also the answer to "Why can't ours".
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > For me the answer is not obvious, but my opinion is:
>>>>>>>     > > > the primary purpose of the layer manager is to select the
>>>>>>>     working layer.
>>>>>>>     > > > Therefore the single left click should change the layer,
>>>>>>>     whatever you are clicking.
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > If the primary purpose of the layer manager is to select the
>>>>>>>     color, then a single left click should
>>>>>>>     > > > open the color dialog.
>>>>>>>     > >
>>>>>>>     > > This isn't "the layer manager", it's a color well IN the layer
>>>>>>>     manager.
>>>>>>>     > >
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > If the single left click opens the dialog, be sure many times,
>>>>>>>     when clicking inside the layer
>>>>>>>     > > > manager, you will open the dialog, instead of changing the
>>>>>>>     active layer, especially if you are too
>>>>>>>     > > > busy clicking on the window to verify the exact position of
>>>>>>>     the mouse.
>>>>>>>     > > > (It frequently happened to me when the single click was
>>>>>>>     opening the dialog)
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > A wise decision is never obvious.
>>>>>>>     > > > (A reason like "other applications do that" is not necessary a
>>>>>>>     good reason.
>>>>>>>     > > > Each application has its constraints and its compromises)
>>>>>>>     > >
>>>>>>>     > > YES IT IS. Consistency is the single most important way to make
>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>     > > interface understandable. A box containing a color is a color
>>>>>>>     well, and
>>>>>>>     > > color wells behave the exact same way in everything that isn't
>>>>>>>     kicad.
>>>>>>>     > >
>>>>>>>     > > Next you'll tell me "File->Open opening a file in other
>>>>>>>     applications is
>>>>>>>     > > not a good reason it shouldn't display a photo of a llama in
>>>>>> KiCad".
>>>>>>>     > >
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > >>
>>>>>>>     > > > >> On 2/21/2017 8:04 AM, John Beard wrote:
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> Hi,
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> These patches fix the layer/render widget swatches in
>>>>>>>     Linux under new
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> GTK+ toolkits. Fix for:
>>>>>>>     https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1605411
>>>>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1605411>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> The patches remove the "button" nature of the swatches,
>>>>>>>     since they
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> weren't actually actuated by a single click, so the button
>>>>>>>     affordance
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> was misleading anyway. Also on OSX, the button was
>>>>>>>     invisible, so it
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> just looked like a flat swatch anyway.
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> * Linux as it was:
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxVhl5qZbpYoZlZPeXV1Q0ttT2s/view
>>>>>>>     <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxVhl5qZbpYoZlZPeXV1Q0ttT2s/view>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> * OSX as it was:
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     https://launchpadlibrarian.net/274428737/Screen%20Shot%
>>>>>> 202016-07-22%20at%2019.40.14.png
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpadlibrarian.net/274428737/Screen%20Shot%
>>>>>> 202016-07-22%20at%2019.40.14.png>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> * Linux after this patch: see attachment
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> This is followed by a refactor to pull the swatch logic
>>>>>>>     out of the
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> layer widget into common, where it can be used by other
>>>>>>>     clients, for
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> example the eeschema display color dialog, if wanted.
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> Patch #3 is a simple replacement of old WX Connect with
>>>>>>>     Bind for
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> consistency in that file.
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> John
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>>
>>>>>>>     > > > >>
>>>>>>>     > > > >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     > > > >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > >> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>     > > > >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>>>>>     > > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     > > > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>     > > > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>>>>>     > > > >
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > --
>>>>>>>     > > > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>>>>>>>     > > >
>>>>>>>     > > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     > > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>     > > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     > > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>     Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
>>>>>>>     More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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