kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Chris Pavlina <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx>]

This is why I work on KiCad, I figure if I spend enough time on this
I'll never make it to old age >:)

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 06:45:10PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> It's hell getting old! :)
> 
> On 2/21/2017 6:43 PM, Simon Wells wrote:
> > haha your advanced life experience must be getting to you.... you even
> > commented on it when it was last bought up on the list
> > https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg23387.html
> > 
> > On 22 February 2017 at 12:39, Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> Why don't I remember that?  It must not have been that way for very
> >> long.  In any event, I'm actually fine with changing it to a single left
> >> click.  We could always undo it if user's absolutely hate it.
> >>
> >> On 2/21/2017 1:43 PM, Simon Wells wrote:
> >>> there was a time where it was single click changes colour and there
> >>> were no complaints that i saw. JP changed it without consultation or
> >>> comment on the list
> >>>
> >>> On 22 February 2017 at 07:30, Chris Pavlina <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 01:26:17PM -0500, Jon Evans wrote:
> >>>>> Yeah, this is going to be a problem any time there is a situation where
> >>>>> KiCad does it differently than "the standard", but has been doing it that
> >>>>> way forever.  No easy fix that pleases both the old users and the new
> >>>>> users.  Other open source software has had this problem too (GIMP, etc)
> >>>>
> >>>> A part of me really wants to fork KiCad, spend a year or so removing ALL
> >>>> these silly KiCadisms that "users will howl about", and release it as a
> >>>> new de-crustified project with the understanding that everything will be
> >>>> different because everything was stupid before. I bet *checks sofa*
> >>>> $3.24 that users would flock to it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sadly, that part of me lives in a fantasy world where days have 48 hours
> >>>> and I get paid megabucks to sit on my butt.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My own thoughts on the matter are that I want to never have to change layer
> >>>>> using the layer picker, and always have it hidden.  Based on the behavior
> >>>>> of other tools I have used, I think that it is possible to greatly reduce
> >>>>> the need to manually change layers, and especially to do so with the mouse
> >>>>> rather than a hotkey.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Jon
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I can just hear users howling already when they left click the color
> >>>>>> swatch thinking that they are selecting the layer and then have to
> >>>>>> dismiss the color select dialog to continue working.  If we cannot come
> >>>>>> up with a better solution, it may be best to leave sleeping dogs lie.  I
> >>>>>> wonder how many of the 75% of voters in the poll would response to
> >>>>>> having to dismiss the color selection dialog every time they
> >>>>>> inadvertently left clicked the color button?  This may be a case of
> >>>>>> ignorance being bliss.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2/21/2017 12:54 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
> >>>>>>> FWIW, this is what my expecations were as a new user when I started with
> >>>>>>> KiCad (for what would happen with a single left-click) based on how
> >>>>>>> things work in other applications with layer managers I have used (ECAD,
> >>>>>>> graphics, etc):
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/Euh2Gjwl.png
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Jon
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Chris Pavlina <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>> <mailto:pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>     By the way.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>     https://forum.kicad.info/t/developer-feedback-poll-layer-
> >>>>>> manager/5421 <https://forum.kicad.info/t/developer-feedback-poll-layer-
> >>>>>> manager/5421>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>     Feel free to add your own responses. The results look pretty
> >>>>>> conclusive
> >>>>>>>     right now ;)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>     On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:40:05AM -0500, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> >>>>>>>     > Sent to wrong recipient.
> >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>>>     > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:38:43AM -0500, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> >>>>>>>     > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 05:24:14PM +0100, jp charras wrote:
> >>>>>>>     > > > Le 21/02/2017 à 16:07, Chris Pavlina a écrit :
> >>>>>>>     > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 09:35:34AM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> My only issue with this change is that the tooltip letting
> >>>>>>>     the user know
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> that a left button double click or a middle button click
> >>>>>>>     would allow
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> them to change the color is gone.  Other than that, it
> >>>>>>>     looks great.  I
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> like the use of Bind instead of Connect.  Bind has a much
> >>>>>>>     cleaner
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> interface than Connect and according to the wx folks is the
> >>>>>>>     proper way
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> to handle events.
> >>>>>>>     > > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > > The tooltip is useless, nobody is going to hover over them
> >>>>>>>     for long
> >>>>>>>     > > > > enough to see it. I was just talking to someone this morning
> >>>>>>>     who never
> >>>>>>>     > > > > found the tooltip because he was too busy clicking on the
> >>>>>>>     buttons to
> >>>>>>>     > > > > make them work.
> >>>>>>>     > > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > > Every other color well in every other application opens its
> >>>>>>>     selection
> >>>>>>>     > > > > dialog with a single left click. Why can't ours?
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > First you have to decide if the main purpose is to select the
> >>>>>>>     active layer or to change the color layer.
> >>>>>>>     > > > The answer will give also the answer to "Why can't ours".
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > For me the answer is not obvious, but my opinion is:
> >>>>>>>     > > > the primary purpose of the layer manager is to select the
> >>>>>>>     working layer.
> >>>>>>>     > > > Therefore the single left click should change the layer,
> >>>>>>>     whatever you are clicking.
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > If the primary purpose of the layer manager is to select the
> >>>>>>>     color, then a single left click should
> >>>>>>>     > > > open the color dialog.
> >>>>>>>     > >
> >>>>>>>     > > This isn't "the layer manager", it's a color well IN the layer
> >>>>>>>     manager.
> >>>>>>>     > >
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > If the single left click opens the dialog, be sure many times,
> >>>>>>>     when clicking inside the layer
> >>>>>>>     > > > manager, you will open the dialog, instead of changing the
> >>>>>>>     active layer, especially if you are too
> >>>>>>>     > > > busy clicking on the window to verify the exact position of
> >>>>>>>     the mouse.
> >>>>>>>     > > > (It frequently happened to me when the single click was
> >>>>>>>     opening the dialog)
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > A wise decision is never obvious.
> >>>>>>>     > > > (A reason like "other applications do that" is not necessary a
> >>>>>>>     good reason.
> >>>>>>>     > > > Each application has its constraints and its compromises)
> >>>>>>>     > >
> >>>>>>>     > > YES IT IS. Consistency is the single most important way to make
> >>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>     > > interface understandable. A box containing a color is a color
> >>>>>>>     well, and
> >>>>>>>     > > color wells behave the exact same way in everything that isn't
> >>>>>>>     kicad.
> >>>>>>>     > >
> >>>>>>>     > > Next you'll tell me "File->Open opening a file in other
> >>>>>>>     applications is
> >>>>>>>     > > not a good reason it shouldn't display a photo of a llama in
> >>>>>> KiCad".
> >>>>>>>     > >
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> On 2/21/2017 8:04 AM, John Beard wrote:
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> These patches fix the layer/render widget swatches in
> >>>>>>>     Linux under new
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> GTK+ toolkits. Fix for:
> >>>>>>>     https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1605411
> >>>>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1605411>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> The patches remove the "button" nature of the swatches,
> >>>>>>>     since they
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> weren't actually actuated by a single click, so the button
> >>>>>>>     affordance
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> was misleading anyway. Also on OSX, the button was
> >>>>>>>     invisible, so it
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> just looked like a flat swatch anyway.
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> * Linux as it was:
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxVhl5qZbpYoZlZPeXV1Q0ttT2s/view
> >>>>>>>     <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxVhl5qZbpYoZlZPeXV1Q0ttT2s/view>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> * OSX as it was:
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     https://launchpadlibrarian.net/274428737/Screen%20Shot%
> >>>>>> 202016-07-22%20at%2019.40.14.png
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpadlibrarian.net/274428737/Screen%20Shot%
> >>>>>> 202016-07-22%20at%2019.40.14.png>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> * Linux after this patch: see attachment
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> This is followed by a refactor to pull the swatch logic
> >>>>>>>     out of the
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> layer widget into common, where it can be used by other
> >>>>>>>     clients, for
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> example the eeschema display color dialog, if wanted.
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> Patch #3 is a simple replacement of old WX Connect with
> >>>>>>>     Bind for
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> consistency in that file.
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> John
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>     > > > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>     > > > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
> >>>>>>>     > > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > --
> >>>>>>>     > > > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> >>>>>>>     > > >
> >>>>>>>     > > > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>     > > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>     > > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     > > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>     Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>     Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> >>>>>>>     More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp