kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Marcos Chaparro <nitrousnrg@xxxxxxxxx>]

As a power user that likes to be standing on the bleeding edge of kicad, I
find this last library stuff terrifying, even before Chris' comments, and I
will keep standing on the nighties before this library merge because I'm
clueless about how and even why it works. ( And I've read the blog post
about this).

Maybe some documentation with drawings instead a lot of text would help us
understand better. The thing that scared me the most was a comment about
the project being written to the disk on opening, so you can't close/kill
kicad and keep your project untouched.

Just my feedback as a user that reads the dev list.

Cheers


Marcos

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Chris Pavlina <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

> That's good, I just worry that if people need to read the manual for
> something as mundane as importing old projects, it might not be ready
> for release yet. I don't mean to whine at you over this, I understand
> that this is a complicated thing to get right and there are a lot of
> corner cases and weird projects to deal with --- I just really don't
> think it's ready. I understand the pressure to get a release out but I
> don't think we should be making one until the rough edges here are
> smoothed.
>
> Beware of the pitfall of thinking something makes sense to everyone
> because it made sense when you designed it. I find myself falling for
> that one a lot too --- things are always more obvious to their
> designers. The footprint preview is causing people trouble too so I'm
> removing it (well, soft-removing it, as an option). I really didn't want
> to admit it was causing people trouble either :P
>
> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 03:07:44PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> > I plan on adding the remapping feature to the Eeschema documentation
> > before the stable 5 release.  Hopefully I can find the time to knock it
> > out it the next week or two to give our translators plenty of time.
> >
> > On 1/2/2018 2:59 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > > Of course. My confusion mostly surrounds how it interacts with rescue
> > > and when it does and does not decide to write things to disk (see
> José's
> > > point about it clobbering its own backups).
> > >
> > > In any case, I don't need you to explain it to me. You and I aren't the
> > > only KiCad users, and if people who've been using KiCad for years and
> > > have actual dev experience (specifically myself and José here) can't
> > > figure it out, scads of users are going to have the same problem. It
> > > needs to be made clearer, not explained on the mailing list.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 02:55:31PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> > >> Let's start at the beginning.  Are you clear on why symbols need to be
> > >> remapped?
> > >>
> > >> On 1/2/2018 2:52 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > >>> Honestly, with this symbol library stuff it's been hard for me to
> figure
> > >>> out what's a bug and what's a confusing design decision. Bug reports
> for
> > >>> the latter are rather frowned upon so I've been refraining from
> filing
> > >>> many bugs.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 02:51:14PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> > >>>> I just tested this repo and it failed to remap every symbol so
> either
> > >>>> something has been broken or this project is a corner case that I
> > >>>> haven't stumbled across yet.  I will keep informed of my progress.
> In
> > >>>> the future, please file bug report when you see something like
> this.  If
> > >>>> you just discuss it on irc, I have no way of knowing this is an
> issue
> > >>>> unless I manage to free up some time (unlikely any time soon) to
> spend
> > >>>> on irc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 1/2/2018 2:42 PM, José Ignacio wrote:
> > >>>>> This sequence of actions is what puts the project on a stuffed up
> state:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> * Open schematic and be greeted with some symbols that need rescue,
> > >>>>> rescue a couple symbols
> > >>>>> * Be greeted by the remap dialog (1)
> > >>>>> * Regret remapping and quit without save
> > >>>>> * Open schematic again
> > >>>>> * Be greeted by the rescue dialog, with ALL symbols, refuse
> > >>>>> * Remap dialog fails to find anything, click through (2)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Schematic looks fine, but the remap and rescue dialogs will show up
> > >>>>> every time even though there is a valid sym-lib-table.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> (1) At this point the pro file is overwritten, deleting all project
> > >>>>> library entries
> > >>>>> (2) At this point the pro file is overwritten again!, clobbering
> the
> > >>>>> backup (SOL)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you accept the second rescue you will have to map everything
> > >>>>> manually. The remapper should really take the existing
> sym-lib-table or
> > >>>>> just not clobber the pro file until the schematic is saved.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The close without save step should be perfectly valid if you're
> just
> > >>>>> peeking at an old project and (possibly much later) you want to go
> > >>>>> modify it you're greeted with that bad surprise.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Chris Pavlina <
> pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> <mailto:pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 02:20:10PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh
> wrote:
> > >>>>>     > It's exactly as insane as the cache has always been.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     I respectfully disagree. As I recall from many years of using
> KiCad
> > >>>>>     before this, nothing about the cache has ever spontaneously
> deleted all
> > >>>>>     libraries without warning. That's a whole new level of
> insanity that
> > >>>>>     deserves its own "what not to do" section in a UX book
> somewhere. (And
> > >>>>>     before you think this is all just "this UX guide sez" vague
> complaining,
> > >>>>>     don't forget that I and many others still have _no idea wtf
> we're doing_
> > >>>>>     trying to drive this thing.)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     > The only way I can
> > >>>>>     > think of this happening is that the schematic was not saved
> after the
> > >>>>>     > remapping and once all of the libraries are removed from the
> project
> > >>>>>     > file but cache should still be valid if no save was
> performed.  Let me
> > >>>>>     > try remapping this project and I will get back to you.
> > >>>>>     >
> > >>>>>     > On 1/2/2018 2:08 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > >>>>>     > > Ah, that explains my question mark case. That's insane.
> > >>>>>     > >
> > >>>>>     > > On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 01:08:11PM -0600, José Ignacio
> wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >> One big problem is that even if everything fails, the
> project
> > >>>>>     will show up
> > >>>>>     > >> fine with all symbols, but they wont have the remap done.
> at
> > >>>>>     the same time
> > >>>>>     > >> the remapper deletes all library entries from the project
> file,
> > >>>>>     which
> > >>>>>     > >> causes it to open with question marks only if you reopen
> it
> > >>>>>     again after
> > >>>>>     > >> saving. It should show the question marks before then or
> make
> > >>>>>     better use of
> > >>>>>     > >> the cache.
> > >>>>>     > >>
> > >>>>>     > >> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 12:44 PM, Chris Pavlina
> > >>>>>     <pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pavlina.chris@xxxxxxxxx>>
> > >>>>>     > >> wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >>
> > >>>>>     > >>> Keep in mind my problem is not necessarily that things
> are
> > >>>>>     _broken_ but
> > >>>>>     > >>> perhaps that they are so opaque that they only make
> sense in
> > >>>>>     the mind of
> > >>>>>     > >>> the designer. As I said in the previous message, we've
> been
> > >>>>>     getting TONS
> > >>>>>     > >>> of people on IRC who can't figure out how the hell to
> drive
> > >>>>>     this thing,
> > >>>>>     > >>> and I count myself among them. Still takes me like three
> tries
> > >>>>>     to load
> > >>>>>     > >>> an old project without it stuffing everything up.
> > >>>>>     > >>>
> > >>>>>     > >>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 01:40:40PM -0500, Wayne
> Stambaugh wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >>>> Please send me a sample project if possible.  I have
> tested
> > >>>>>     this every
> > >>>>>     > >>>> which way I can think of and it works fine for
> everything I
> > >>>>>     throw at it.
> > >>>>>     > >>>>  The only time things fall apart are when the cache is
> > >>>>>     corrupted or
> > >>>>>     > >>>> missing and/or rescues have be ignored.  In those cases
> there
> > >>>>>     is nothing
> > >>>>>     > >>>> I can do because the proper symbols do not exist
> anywhere so
> > >>>>>     remapping
> > >>>>>     > >>>> is not possible.
> > >>>>>     > >>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>> On 1/2/2018 1:33 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >>>>> Are we really going to do an RC now without any more
> work to
> > >>>>>     the remap
> > >>>>>     > >>>>> stuff? I just had it ruin another project last night.
> It
> > >>>>>     behaves very
> > >>>>>     > >>>>> poorly when things also have to be rescued or
> libraries are
> > >>>>>     missing, it
> > >>>>>     > >>>>> seems.
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 09:10:20AM -0500, Wayne
> Stambaugh wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> On 1/2/2018 8:58 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>> On 28/12/17 20:24, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> There are a few outstanding crash bugs that need to
> be
> > >>>>>     fixed before
> > >>>>>     > >>> we
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> can consider branching the stable 5 release.  Here
> is the
> > >>>>>     list of
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> unresolved crash bugs that effect the development
> branch:
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1562788
> > >>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1562788>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1732274
> > >>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1732274>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738872
> > >>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738872>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738999
> > >>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738999>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1739614
> > >>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1739614>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1740253
> > >>>>>     <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1740253>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>> Hey Wayne,
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>> I fixed the remaining 2 bugs yesterday (the STEP
> import
> > >>>>>     one is a bug
> > >>>>>     > >>> in
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>> OCE). Please proceed with the 5.0-rc.
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>> Tom
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Hi Tom,
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Thanks!.  I wont have time to get to this until the
> > >>>>>     weekend.  If there
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> are no additional critical severity bug reports by
> then, I
> > >>>>>     will create
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> the version 5 branch.
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Wayne
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > >>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > >>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> > >>>>>     > >>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> > >>>>>     <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
> > >>>>>     > >>>
> > >>>>>     > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>     > >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > >>>>>     <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>
> > >>>>>     > >>> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>>     <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>>>>     > >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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> > >>>>>     > >>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
>
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