kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Andrey Kuznetsov <kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>]

Jon, thanks for clarifying the cases. I hadn't thought about Wayne's
suggestion that way, and it does seem to make sense to me more than mine,
however I don't think the Render tab's items should be checked/modified
when Visibility is checked/modified.
For example, if I want to turn off Front Cu layer, and my Front Pads is
checked, then unchecking Front Cu will hide all Front layer copper
including Front Pads, however the checkbox for the Front Pads would remain
checked. It's about choosing which item types to show should their layer be
set to VISIBLE, not about trying to manipulate item types based on which
layer is turned on or off. What if I don't want to show front pads, but
need to toggle Front Cu, it'd be a hassle to uncheck Front Pads everytime
Front Cu is checked.

While you're modifying the Render tab, can you please re-order the items in
the list? Front and Bottom pads of the same item type should stick together
in the list, and perhaps place the most used items at the top.

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

> That's how I see it.  If I turn off the top copper layer and the
> footprints are linked to the layer then I want to turn off the footprint
> pads on that layer.  The remaining footprint layers would still be
> visible (silk screen, solder, mask, etc.).  Through hole layers may be
> tricking.  I don't think we really have a concept of the top or bottom
> copper of a through hole layer.
>
> On 02/18/2018 09:03 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
> > Those are interesting ideas.  My reading is that Andrey and Wayne are
> > actually proposing two different "linking" modes:
> >
> > Andrey: linking Front and Back (i.e. checking Front pads also checks
> > Back pads)
> > Wayne: linking copper and render (i.e. checking F.Cu also checks Front
> pads)
> >
> > Am I right about your suggestion, Wayne?
> >
> > I think from my personal perspective as a user, I would expect by
> > default Wayne's link to be on and Andrey's to be off.
> > That is, by default if I turn off F.Cu I expect Front Pads to go away
> > too, but there might be edge cases where I want to turn on F.Cu and turn
> > off F.Pads or vice versa.
> >
> > -Jon
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov <kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx
> > <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >
> >     Wayne,
> >     Yep, that's what I meant, kind of like the Photoshop linked layers.
> >
> >     I should have added that the link is only between two of the same
> >     checkboxes that are front and bottom. Ie Front/Bottom Pads would
> >     have linkage, a different linkage would be between F/B Text, and
> >     another for etc...
> >
> >     Please don't link multiple text/pads/vias/footprints together. I
> >     think linking should only be between Front and Bottom of the same
> >     item type. Maybe add a tiny horizontal separator between the pairs
> >     of Front and Bottom rows: ie
> >     Front Pads
> >     Bottom Pads
> >     -----------------
> >     Front Text
> >     Bottom Text
> >     -----------------
> >     etc
> >
> >     On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Wayne Stambaugh
> >     <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >
> >         I was thinking the same thing but rather than locked, I was
> thinking
> >         linked to the layer but the concept is the same.  If they are
> >         linked,
> >         when the layer is turned off, so are the footprints on that
> >         layer.  When
> >         they are unlinked, they are independent similar to the current
> >         behavior.
> >          I would default to linked since that is what most users would
> >         expect.
> >
> >         On 02/18/2018 08:42 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
> >         > Hi Jon,
> >         >
> >         > Make sure Andrews' patches are consistent with your commits,
> essentially
> >         > don't commit if it'll end up as a hodge podge of code that
> even though
> >         > it works is not coherent.
> >         >
> >         > I can see benefits to having control over showing front copper
> pads but
> >         > hiding bottom copper pads, so I would keep them separate.
> >         > If it's an annoyance to toggle both front and bottom copper
> checkboxes
> >         > for pads, maybe a LOCK is warranted such that in a locked
> position, a
> >         > toggle checkbox in either, toggles both checkboxes for
> front/bottom, and
> >         > an unlocked state keeps them independent.
> >         >
> >         > Thanks
> >         >
> >         > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Jon Evans <jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >         > <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >     I'm going to go to the user forum with these questions
> too, but
> >         >     curious what the devs think about this:
> >         >
> >         >     In my original RFC, I proposed eliminating the different
> between
> >         >     "front" and "back" in the Render checkboxes.
> >         >     I still think this makes sense for things like text and
> footprints,
> >         >     but I'm having second thoughts about merging the "Pads
> Front" and
> >         >     "Pads Back"
> >         >     Right now we have pads set to a different color than other
> copper on
> >         >     the front and back copper layers.
> >         >     I guess some users probably like this and would get
> annoyed if we
> >         >     removed the ability for pads to be a special color.
> >         >     Will they get annoyed if we force them to set both the
> front and the
> >         >     back pads to the same color?
> >         >
> >         >     (to be honest, I am used to EDA tools that by default
> treat pads as
> >         >     part of the copper layer and show them in the same color,
> so I don't
> >         >     care about this feature)
> >         >
> >         >     -Jon
> >         >
> >         >     On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Jon Evans <
> jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >         >     <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>
> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >         Thanks Wayne and Jeff (and yes there are a lot of edge
> cases
> >         >         here to sort out)
> >         >
> >         >         Note that Andrzej Wolski already did propose some
> changes
> >         >         related to this that might be good to merge as a first
> step.
> >         >         I have only done limited testing on them so far but
> they do work
> >         >         and resolve some of the problems:
> >         >
> >         >         https://bugs.launchpad.net/
> kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6>
> >         >
> >          <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6>>
> >         >
> >          https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html
> >         <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html>
> >         >         <https://lists.launchpad.net/
> kicad-developers/msg34009.html
> >         <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html>>
> >         >
> >         >         -Jon
> >         >
> >         >         On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:53 PM, Jeff Young <
> jeff@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jeff@xxxxxxxxx>
> >         >         <mailto:jeff@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jeff@xxxxxxxxx>>>
> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >             Hi Jon,
> >         >
> >         >             Sounds good to me too.  A few edge-cases you might
> want to
> >         >             watch out for:
> >         >
> >         >             https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894>
> >         >             <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894>>
> >         >             https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521>
> >         >             <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521>>
> >         >             https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730>
> >         >             <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730>>
> >         >
> >         >             Cheers,
> >         >             Jeff.
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >>             On 18 Feb 2018, at 22:36, Wayne Stambaugh
> >         >>             <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:
> stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>
> >         <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>>>
> wrote:
> >         >>
> >         >>             Hey Jon,
> >         >>
> >         >>             I'm good with all of this.  I would like to get
> this
> >         >>             cleaned up before the stable release if possible
> since
> >         >>             there are so many complaints and bug reports
> about it.
> >         >>
> >         >>             Thanks,
> >         >>
> >         >>             Wayne
> >         >>
> >         >>             On 02/18/2018 03:00 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
> >         >>>             Hi all,
> >         >>>             Right now the behavior of the "Layer" and
> "Render" tabs
> >         >>>             of the layers widget are confusing to users,
> resulting in
> >         >>>             complaints on the forum and some bug reports:
> >         >>>             https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181>
> >         >>>             <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181>>
> >         >>>             https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890>
> >         >>>             <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890
> >         <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890>>
> >         >>>             I could take a crack at fixing this (before or
> >         after 5.0
> >         >>>             depending on what the complexity ends up being)
> but
> >         >>>             before I write any code I wanted to propose how
> >         I think
> >         >>>             it should work.
> >         >>>             I think the visibility of any object should be
> >         the AND of
> >         >>>             layer visibility and render visibility.
> >         >>>             To get there:
> >         >>>             1) In the Render tab, get rid of the distinction
> >         between
> >         >>>             front/back. For example "Pads Back" and "Pads
> Front"
> >         >>>             becomes just "Pads"
> >         >>>             2) Change the visibility code so that an object
> is
> >         >>>             visible if (a) the associated Render setting is
> >         turned on
> >         >>>             for the type of object, and (b) at least one of
> the
> >         >>>             layers the object is on is enabled in the Layers
> >         tab.
> >         >>>             3) (optionally) Rename "Render" to something more
> >         >>>             friendly like "Items" or "Item Types" to make it
> >         more
> >         >>>             clear to the user that this is where they can
> >         turn off
> >         >>>             the display of various types of items as opposed
> to
> >         >>>             various layerse
> >         >>>             If this plan is OK, I will start working out the
> >         details
> >         >>>             of how to get there.  Right now the Render tab is
> >         >>>             directly controlling the visibility of certain
> "GAL
> >         >>>             Layers" but unfortunately the set of objects
> >         that appears
> >         >>>             on one GAL layer is not always equal to the set
> of
> >         >>>             objects that the user would expect to turn on
> >         and off, as
> >         >>>             seen by the bug reports.  So, there will have to
> >         be some
> >         >>>             additional logic created to manage these
> >         settings beyond
> >         >>>             just turning on and off layers in the GAL.
> >         >>>             -Jon
> >         >>>             _______________________________________________
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> >         >
> >         > --
> >         > Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
> >         > Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to
> miss the
> >         > future [JFK]
> >         >
> >         > kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
> >         <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >         > Live Long and Prosper,
> >         > Andrey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
> >     Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss
> >     the future [JFK]
> >
> >     kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
> >     Live Long and Prosper,
> >     Andrey
> >
> >
>



-- 
Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the
future [JFK]

kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx
Live Long and Prosper,
Andrey