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Re: Swift Consistency Guarantees?

 

As Stephen mentionned if there is only one replica left Swift would not
serve it.

Chmouel.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Sorry for being so persistent, but I'm still not sure what happens if
> the 2 servers that carry the new replica are down, but the 1 server that
> has the old replica is up. Will GET fail or return the old replica?
>
> Best,
> Niko
>
> On 01/20/2012 02:52 PM, Stephen Broeker wrote:
> > By default there are 3 replicas.
> > A PUT Object will return after 2 replicas are done.
> > So if all nodes are up then there are at least 2 replicas.
> > If all replica nodes are down, then the GET Object will fail.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx
> > <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi,
> >
> >     So if an object update has not yet been replicated on all nodes, and
> all
> >     nodes that have been updated are offline, what will happen? Will
> swift
> >     recognize this and give me an error, or will it silently return the
> >     older version?
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >     Nikolaus
> >
> >
> >     On 01/20/2012 02:14 PM, Stephen Broeker wrote:
> >     > If a node is down, then it is ignored.
> >     > That is the whole point about 3 replicas.
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>
> >     > <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Hi,
> >     >
> >     >     What happens if one of the nodes is down? Especially if that
> >     node holds
> >     >     the newest copy?
> >     >
> >     >     Thanks,
> >     >     Nikolaus
> >     >
> >     >     On 01/20/2012 12:33 PM, Stephen Broeker wrote:
> >     >     > The X-Newest header can be used by a GET Operation to ensure
> >     that
> >     >     all of the
> >     >     > Storage Nodes (3 by default) are queried for the latest copy
> of
> >     >     the Object.
> >     >     > The COPY Object operation already has this functionality.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Nikolaus Rath
> >     <Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>
> >     >     <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>>
> >     >     > <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>
> >     <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Hi,
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     No one able to further clarify this?
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Does swift offer there read-after-create consistence like
> >     >     >     non-us-standard S3? What are the precise syntax and
> >     semantics of
> >     >     >     X-Newest header?
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Best,
> >     >     >     Nikolaus
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     On 01/18/2012 10:15 AM, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> >     >     >     > Michael Barton <mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >     >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >     >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:mike-launchpad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>> writes:
> >     >     >     >> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Nikolaus Rath
> >     >     <Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>
> >     <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>
> >     <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Nikolaus@xxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >     >>> Amazon S3 and Google Storage make very explicit
> (non-)
> >     >     consistency
> >     >     >     >>> guarantees for stored objects. I'm looking for a
> similar
> >     >     >     documentation
> >     >     >     >>> about OpenStack's Swift, but haven't had much
> success.
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >> I don't think there's any documentation on this, but
> >     it would
> >     >     >     probably
> >     >     >     >> be good to write up.  Consistency in Swift is very
> >     similar
> >     >     to S3.
> >     >     >     >> That is, there aren't many non-eventual consistency
> >     guarantees.
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >> Listing updates can happen asynchronously (especially
> >     under
> >     >     >     load), and
> >     >     >     >> older versions of files can show up in requests
> (deletes
> >     >     are just a
> >     >     >     >> new "deleted" version of the file).
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Ah, ok. Thanks a lot for stating this so explicitly.
> >     There seems
> >     >     >     to be a
> >     >     >     > lot of confusion about this, now I can at least point
> >     people to
> >     >     >     > something.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >> Swift can generally be relied on for read-after-write
> >     >     consistency,
> >     >     >     >> like S3's regions other than the the US Standard
> region.
> >     >      The reason
> >     >     >     >> S3 in US Standard doesn't have this guarantee is
> because
> >     >     it's more
> >     >     >     >> geographically widespread - something Swift isn't
> good at
> >     >     yet.  I can
> >     >     >     >> imagine we'll have the same limitation when we get
> there.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Do you mean read-after-create consistency? Because
> >     below you
> >     >     say about
> >     >     >     > read-after-write:
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >>> - If I receive a (non-error) response to a PUT
> >     request, am I
> >     >     >     guaranteed
> >     >     >     >>> that the object will be immediately included in all
> >     object
> >     >     >     listings in
> >     >     >     >>> every possible situation?
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >> Nope.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > ..so is there such a guarantee for PUTs of *new*
> objects
> >     >     (like S3 non
> >     >     >     > us-classic), or does "can generally be relied on" just
> >     mean
> >     >     that the
> >     >     >     > chances for new puts are better?
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >> Also like S3, Swift can't make any strong guarantees
> >     about
> >     >     >     >> read-after-update or read-after-delete consistency.
> >      We do
> >     >     have an
> >     >     >     >> "X-Newest" header that can be added to GETs and HEADs
> to
> >     >     make the
> >     >     >     >> proxy do a quorum of backend servers and return the
> >     newest
> >     >     available
> >     >     >     >> version, which greatly improves these, at the cost of
> >     latency.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > That sounds very interesting. Could you give some more
> >     >     details on what
> >     >     >     > exactly is guaranteed when using this header? What
> happens
> >     >     if the
> >     >     >     server
> >     >     >     > having the newest copy is down?
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >>> - If the swift server looses an object, will the
> >     object name
> >     >     >     still be
> >     >     >     >>> returned in object listings? Will attempts to
> >     retrieve it
> >     >     result
> >     >     >     in 404
> >     >     >     >>> errors (as if it never existed) or a different error?
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >> It will show up in listings, but give a 404 when you
> >     attempt to
> >     >     >     >> retrieve it.  I'm not sure how we can improve that
> >     with Swift's
> >     >     >     >> general model, but feel free to make suggestions.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > From an application programmers point of view, it
> >     would be very
> >     >     >     helpful
> >     >     >     > if lost objects could be distinguished from
> non-existing
> >     >     object by a
> >     >     >     > different HTTP error. Trying to access a non-existing
> >     object may
> >     >     >     > indicate a bug in the application, so it would be nice
> to
> >     >     know when it
> >     >     >     > happens.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Also, it would be very helpful if there was a way to
> list
> >     >     all lost
> >     >     >     > objects without having to issue HEAD requests for every
> >     >     stored object.
> >     >     >     > Could this information be added to the XML and JSON
> >     output of
> >     >     >     container
> >     >     >     > listings? Then an application would have the chance to
> >     >     periodically
> >     >     >     > check for lost data, rather than having to handle all
> lost
> >     >     objects at
> >     >     >     > the instant they're required.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > I am working on a swift backend for S3QL
> >     >     >     > (http://code.google.com/p/s3ql/), a program that
> exposes
> >     >     online cloud
> >     >     >     > storage as a local UNIX file system. To prevent data
> >     >     corruption, there
> >     >     >     > are two requirements that I'm currently struggling to
> >     >     provide with the
> >     >     >     > swift backend:
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > - There needs to be a way to reliably check if one
> object
> >     >     (holding the
> >     >     >     >   file system metadata) is the newest version.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >   The S3 backend does this by requiring storage in the
> non
> >     >     us-classic
> >     >     >     >   regions and using list-after-create consistency with
> a
> >     >     marker object
> >     >     >     >   that has has a "generation number" of the metadata
> >     >     embedded in its
> >     >     >     >   name.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >   I'm not yet sure if this would work with swift as
> well
> >     >     (the google
> >     >     >     >   storage backend just relies on the strong
> >     read-after-write
> >     >     >     >   consistency).
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > - The file system checker needs a way to identify lost
> >     objects.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >   Here the S3 backend just relies on the durability
> >     >     guarantee that
> >     >     >     >   effectively no object will ever be lost.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >   Again, I'm not sure how to implement this for swift.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Any suggestions?
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Best,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >    -Nikolaus
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >       -Nikolaus
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     --
> >     >     >      »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
> >     >     >
> >     >     >      PGP fingerprint: 5B93 61F8 4EA2 E279 ABF6  02CF A9AD
> B7F8
> >     >     AE4E 425C
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     _______________________________________________
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> >     >     >     Post to     : openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >     >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >     >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:openstack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>
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> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >       -Nikolaus
> >     >
> >     >     --
> >     >      »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
> >     >
> >     >      PGP fingerprint: 5B93 61F8 4EA2 E279 ABF6  02CF A9AD B7F8
> >     AE4E 425C
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >       -Nikolaus
> >
> >     --
> >      »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
> >
> >      PGP fingerprint: 5B93 61F8 4EA2 E279 ABF6  02CF A9AD B7F8 AE4E 425C
> >
> >
>
>
>   -Nikolaus
>
> --
>  »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
>
>  PGP fingerprint: 5B93 61F8 4EA2 E279 ABF6  02CF A9AD B7F8 AE4E 425C
>
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