qreator-discuss team mailing list archive

[Stefan Schwarzburg <stefan.schwarzburg@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:07 PM, David Planella
<david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> Al 30/11/12 11:26, En/na Stefan Schwarzburg ha escrit:
> > Hi David,
> >
> > thank you for your answer!
> > I will not go into details again, but I think that in general we agree
> :-)
> >
>
> Cool :)
>
> > I have started the comparison table in the wiki, but you might know more
> > about i18n and localization.
> >
>
> I saw that, thank you so much for doing the research and filling the
> table in. That's exactly what I had in mind and more!
>
> Regarding i18n/l10n, I think we can get away with just having one row
> for i18n (that is, if the toolkit has got good internationalization
> support, we can assume it can be well localized).
>
>
just a quick note to that: I guess that gettext support and e.g. RTL
support in widgets is not the same. And I don't think kivy e.g. can do
RTL...


> I think except HTML5, all toolkits should support i18n. I've been
> looking at kivy a bit, and if I understand it correctly, it's 100%
> Python code and should support gettext as usual. The only part that I'm
> not too clear on is whether the _() gettext call can be used in Kv, but
> having asked on #kivy, they tell me that Kv files can contain Python
> imports (e.g. #:from gettext import gettext as _) and Python calls (e.g.
> _('translate me!')), so if that works out, then i18n is implicitly
> supported.
>
> > My take on this is issue at the moment is, that I do not like Qt, but
> > I'm happy to learn it, so that this feeling will then either be based on
> > in-depth knowledge or dissapear...
> >
>
> That's the spirit :)
>
> > I think that I will use kivy for other projects.
> >
>
> Yeah, Kivy looks really cool and nice to program with, especially with
> its more pythonic interface. I'm still more inclined to use Qt, but as
> you said, let's focus on separating logic and UI for now.
>
> Btw, regarding the Python 3 port, you'll be glad to hear that it's
> happening: "Kivy got a $5000 grant from the Python Software Foundation
> for porting it to Python 3.3" -
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/kivy-users/5Z_UJOoBeIc/discussion:-)
>
> > Still, we have to plan in detail, which parts of the window will be qml
> > based, and which will be qwidgets based.
> >
>
> I agree, I need to delve into Qt a bit more myself first.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Stefan
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 4:46 PM, David Planella
> > <david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >
> >     Al 24/11/12 17:04, En/na Stefan Schwarzburg ha escrit:
> >     > Hi David,
> >     >
> >     > today I spent some time waiting with a smartphone in my hand, and
> used
> >     > that time to research PySide and QML.
> >     >
> >
> >     Hey Stefan,
> >
> >     Thanks for your time looking into this. Let me try to reply inline.
> >
> >     > I have to say, that I'm less than impressed. Actually, PySide
> seems to
> >     > be even more verbose and convoluted than PyGObject, and I already
> >     > thought that this was at the edge of being acceptable.
> >     >
> >
> >     I can't reply on this one, as I haven't played with it much yet, but
> >     unless it's extremely convoluted to write the code, I'm not
> personally
> >     much concerned about it if the end result is going to be a
> significant
> >     improvement.
> >
> >     > And QML, while a step in the right direction from the Glade ui
> >     files, is
> >     > very Javascript heavy. It seems as if designing is not really
> possible
> >     > without JavaScript.
> >
> >     In my little experience with QML, my understanding is that:
> >
> >     - You can design apps with QML alone
> >     - For more complex apps, you might need to add Javascript
> >     - For even more complex apps, you'll need to resort to C++ (or in our
> >     case, Python)
> >
> >     But, of course, this will have to be put to the test to see if it
> really
> >     applies or I'm just talking nonsense :)
> >
> >     > From the perspective of a C++ developer, QML is certainly a step
> >     in the
> >     > right direction. Developers and designers now have to write much
> less
> >     > C++ code, and I understand that this is a good thing. Now, GUI
> heavy
> >     > applications can be written with Qt, but completely without C++.
> >     > But from the perspective of a Python developer, JavaScript is not
> >     a step
> >     > in the right direction (at least not for me).
> >     >
> >
> >     Right. To be clear, it's my intention to stay on Python too, and not
> go
> >     into the C++ or JavaScript realm. Now, if we have to write a small
> >     amount of JavaScript in addition, and for UI purposes only, I don't
> see
> >     it much of an issue. Assuming that our logic and core code is in
> Python.
> >
> >     > I think that if we really set our minds to developing Qreator with
> >     > JavaScript, we should really use HTML5+CSS3. This would allow us to
> >     > completely ignore the desktop, be open for every OS, and let the
> >     > integration be done by Ubuntu-webapps or similar.
> >     > However, I don't like the idea of using JavaScript. Actually,
> >     since this
> >     > is a project that I like to do in my spare time, I would prefer to
> >     stick
> >     > to Python.
> >     >
> >
> >     I agree with the point of going to HTML5, but not because of a
> potential
> >     switch to JavaScript. If we were to go to HTML5, the two main 'pro'
> >     points would be:
> >
> >     - It is a web-wide standard
> >     - It would allow us to have the same code running on the web and on
> the
> >     desktop
> >
> >     However, if we were to do that, I'd rather use the approach of
> embedding
> >     the UI into a webkit view and have the backend still be Python (with
> >     perhaps a small amount of JavaScript if CSS3 would not allow us to to
> >     everything we want to do). There is some example code in the Quickly
> >     HTML5 template at
> https://code.launchpad.net/quickly-community-templates
> >
> >     Having said that, I don't think HTML5 is ready for our purposes yet,
> as
> >     I'm still primarily considering Qreator to be a client app, not a web
> >     app. The spanner(s) in the works for me are:
> >
> >     - No native widgets
> >     - No Unity integration
> >     - No internationalization support
> >
> >     > So my suggestion would be to focus (after that release) on the
> >     > separation of GUI and background-logic and then we can explore Qt,
> >     but I
> >     > would then also like to explore kivy. The kivy language is very
> much
> >     > like QML, but integrates python in stead of JavaScript, and kivy
> >     itself
> >     > is the most pythonic GUI-toolkit I have seen so far.
> >
> >     I fully agree. However, although it looks pretty awesome, I'm still
> not
> >     convinced by kivy.
> >
> >     For the purposes of exploring our choices, I've created
> >
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Qreator/GetInvolved/Brainstorm/GuiToolkitChoice
> >
> >     If you'd like to advocate for kivy, would you mind filling in the
> kivy
> >     part, so that when we make the actual decision we can base it on the
> >     facts from our research?
> >
> >     Thanks.
> >
> >     > I'm aware that kivy has many disadvantages, especially the lack of
> >     > support from Unity specific tools (dbus-menu, HUD, Gtk-themes,
> >     ...) but
> >     > I think that I will have much more fun coding with kivy than with
> Qt.
> >     >
> >
> >     I think the fun factor is an important one to take into account,
> >     especially when contributing to a project in the spare time.
> However, we
> >     should also throw into the mix the end result for users,
> >     maintainability, documentation and other factors to come up with a
> good
> >     balance.
> >
> >     If you've got any ideas for the criteria we should evaluate when
> >     choosing the GUI toolkit, please do feel free to add them to the wiki
> >     page, I've added a placeholder text under the comparison table
> header.
> >
> >     Thanks again for your input!
> >
> >     Cheers,
> >     David.
> >
> >     > Let me know what you think...
> >     >
> >     > Cheers,
> >     > Stefan
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:01 PM, David Planella
> >     > <david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >     <mailto:david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:david.planella@xxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Al 23/11/12 16:27, En/na Stefan Schwarzburg ha escrit:
> >     >     > Hi David,
> >     >     >
> >     >     > one small question: Your plan was to switch to Qt after this
> >     release,
> >     >     > right? Not to develop two GUIs in parallel...
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >     Exactly, that was the idea, a switch and just one single UI.
> >     >
> >     >     Cheers,
> >     >     David.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     --
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> >     <mailto:qreator-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> David Planella
> Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
> www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com
> www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella
>
>
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