torios team mailing list archive

[Israel Dahl <israeldahl@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi,
(inline replies below)
On 7/6/20 8:25 AM, ml@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> On Thu, July 2, 2020 2:07 pm, Israel Dahl wrote:
>> (snip)
> I'm still working on/trying to find lightweight alternatives that will
> work better on older systems than a lot of the typical programs offered. 
> I really like how ToriOS makes good use of the FLTK GUI. *snip*

I would like to see FLTK begin to work on other things beside X11.  What
do you think about use here?  I think being able to consider the
eventual mobile device trash heap will need repurposed, and those types
of devices AFAIK benefit from these modern, different types (wayland,
mir, proprietary, etc.....)

I've also recently begun seriously thinking about Rust, instead of
shell/python or C-like languages. 

>
> I'm also looking into SDL *snip*

I have thought about this two, and looked at Rust initially in this type
of regard.

Is SDL the fastest?  Is there a way to make an easier end-user library
for applications?  You are a really good programmer, and know a lot of
optimizations, so I think you would be ideal to write some type of
end-user library specifically for tiny linux distros.  We could use your
optimizations by default by using your library. (or even toolkit if you
wanted)

> I think the main distribution that actively tries to reach users with
> older machines is Puppy Linux.  *snip*
I still use puppy on a computer :D  It is the Ubuntu based one, and I
saw Puppy ass perfect for geeks, but not what most people expect.  They
have refined things a lot lately!
> One of my favorite distributions that's
> based on Debian is AntiX.  Don't know if we can share any resources with
> them, but AntiX works very well on older hardware.

This is where I think Wayland, etc and a simple memory safe library that
is optimized like you can would benefit the long term goals you have,
(and all of us together too)

So when people have to rewrite everything to support both types of
hardware, it will already be easy, and safe code written by someone that
routinely optimizes even the most optimized programs!

>   It has some nice
> custom software that works well on low resource machines too.  Plus, it's
> systemd free
That is a concern, I have thought about Devuan, but I am not really sure
the best option.  I asked Stallman what he thought about it, and he
didn't care.  I think it might be an invasion of the users freedom,
since it is binary, rather than scripts you can read....
> *snip*
> One other advantage is that it has several tools for doing
> respins in ISO or flash drive format.
Nio built tools to do this for our system, and it was included.  You
could customize your system, and tar it up.  Plus it was written in
bash, easy to modify in a pinch!
> *snip*
> musl

Ok, I like lighter libraries, but are the functions the same?  Is it a
job for sed, or more complex?

I am all for tiny, lightweight low resource.  That is why I spent so
much time using FLTK.  Just a few KiB for a program that is similar to a
huge resource multi MiB program (with other huge libraries)

> the system would be more lightweight and would allow for static
> compilation.  However, you'd lose compatibility with Debian

Perhaps, but Puppy doesn't, besides with flatkpak/snap/AppImage people
can get huge programs if they want!  The only issue is infrastructure.

We don't have build servers, or package repos... just PPAs, which wont
build for 32bit anymore.... so we need to find some other way to make
ToriOS exist....

> I think ToriOS and AntiX are the main distributions I know when it comes
> to targeting older systems and remaining Debian based.  Also, many
> distributions are moving away from 32 bit support and offering only 64 bit
> support.  Might be worth looking into how likely it is that Debian will go
> this route as well and what to do in case that happens.
It might happen.  Debian is generally inclusive of older hardware.  I
think they follow kernel changes mostly, and use the hardware they have,
it isn't hard to compile for 32bit on 64bit, right? I can even compile a
windows binary on my computer (no matter the distro I use)
>   I've noticed
> several forums mentioning issues with getting a modern browser
Unless the code has been made to exclude 32bit (memory reasons,
probably... they hog it now) it can always be made into a 32bit binary
on a 64bit (unless they ruin compilers too :P ).  I want to support it
around the world where it is being used daily, until it isn't.

-- 
Regards,
 Israel