ubuntu-eg-council team mailing list archive

[Ahmed Shams <ashams@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Jonathan, I think I've replied to your comment impliedly, if I didn't
please inform me.

/!\ Rant Inside /!\

On 14 March 2012 15:01, Ahmed Toulan <thelinuxer@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
> Second thought ... I think we should discuss it here. So that it would  be
> documented and any decision we make should be final :)
>

You can't, or any body, make *final* decisions by any meaning, cuz if
council changed and decided to change some thing, it is absolutely free to.
Instead, document your decision well so next persons can consider it in
future. There's no thing called *final* in this world's logic.
Also, if "final" means me shut up or even muted, I can't accept it and will
do whatever it takes to fix it.

>
> First of all I am pro-following the leadership code of conduct of course.
>
Thank you, I'm sure you do a lnong time ago, even without it :D


>
> Second, Karim's problem. I am not saying that Karim should be a leader.
>
Sure, he's not a leader anymore. a leader is the one who leads on ground,
not the one who holds privileges for no reason!


> So simply the line you quoted does not apply to our case.
>

How so? It means, a person who started an initiative can *NOT* continue to
be considered as a leader, if s/he doesn't lead anymore. Leadership, by
nature, gives some privileges and those privileges should not be held after
a leader stops leading(or simply fades out), that's what you guys want to
give me a reason for. Why you want Karim to hold such ability without being
active on ground, Khayfeen mennoh?


> I opened this
> in the meeting because we talked about it before and I thought about it
> and really think there is no benefit behind doing this and it would only
> cause problems.
>

You are afraid of causing fuss around team's name, right?
Advice: If you have a problem don't try to fix it by anyhow other than
fixing it's roots, and this does mean taking the method that will cause you
the fewest problems.
So, please stop compromising me whether shut-up or cause problems!


>
> From my point of view I think if Karim didn't create a team in the first
> place, may be we wouldn't have gotten this far. He at least finished
> milestone zero for us.
>

I'm not saying we deny that he made step one, please don't accuse me of
this!
Ok Guys, if this is your style let's make a "Hole of Fame" wiki-page OR
tell you, let's make a special FG for him named "Ana Asef Ya Karim" :P
I do say, again and again, if he doesn't lead let he stop having privileges!
We don not have persons, we have a team and that team have something to do,
kindly stop behaving like everything is ok! We didn't finish it yet, we
didn't turn Egypt into F/LOSS yet, we have no entity that a gov't can
depend on to move into open-source yet, we didn't teach folks how to
migrate to open OSs yet. Instead, we're sinking in a see of stinky desire
to be*fakly*  considered as a leader! WTF!


> Now the questions are:
>

Cool, I like questions.

>
>    1. What benefits are we going to gain from removing Karim's name from
>    the owner field ?
>
> Rather, you should have asked, What problems can keeping Karim with Owner
privilege bring?
Tell me, what if Karim hated some future council's decision? OR
What if he decided to get back to the team, and of course as a *Leader*? ;(
Remember when I ranted on this subject before?, he said "I don't know about
the team's mailing list" when he was told to send his msgs/replies to our
mailing list instead of loco-contacts@lists.u.c, remember this?
Ok, on revision '1' of the wiki-site history, Karim added the mailing list
address(see here<https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EgyptTeam?action=recall&rev=1#Contact>on
Contact section)!
So, did he forgot that he made this team a mailing list before he
disappeared? OR
he sent his msgs to loco-contacts@l.u.c cuz he just wanted to make us
appear to the whole community as we're trying to force him out and he
intended to send it there because he knew that arguing with us won't bring
him to anywhere as he knew/knows that our argument is pretty powerful and
clear(that he's not here anymore)? I will need an answer on this, please!

>
>    1. What problems will it introduce ?
>
> Again, I'm not saying let's hit the wall, I say, let's know the problem
and fix it peacefully, for example; preparing u-eg community by talking
about it during meetings, then collect the general opinion on changing
ownership, then contact the community council, not Karim!

>
>    1. What's the ubuntu community's(not just the Egyptian) point of view
>    on this matter? We already had an incident of the loco-contacts mailing
>    list.
>
> I know that your first and last concern is to never cause us problems or
being ashamed or misunderstood in any way BUT this is too irrelevant to the
community/loco council point of view. I know what would be their
opinion/decision, and you guys too know that they won't, in anyway, allow
such case to exist!

I have to point out that I had the privileges to make the council team
> administrators.
>

Cool, and if you disappeared you'll leave your Admin privileges.


> You now have all the privileges for the team to run. Why
> cause problems if we don't need to?
>

Simply because it's not "OK" to leave him use/exploit his status, either
for non-honest psychological needs or job kudoz OR to come back as a
leader, and you know that if he came back to the team he will come-n-go and
during his stay he doesn't know how things go in here, and his msg/reply
when Seif notified him that a discussion is going to result in kicking him
out is a real good example of the future happenings.


> Please lets vote on this, and whatever decision we reach should be final
> and shouldn't be opened again unless something new comes along the
> way.
>

Here you tried to fix it a bit, but no really, cuz even if you got a final
decision you can't shut me up!


> By something new I mean an incident or some violation ..etc
>

Heck, you mean you'll wait for an incident to happen :) What a cool
decision?
Do you guarantee that such an incident will happen when we're here?
Karim's ownership even does break the CoC, cuz when he felt himself
fading-out, he didn't announce it so another leadership can form, INSTEAD
he insists to keep his privileges!
Guys, one last thing; you may have seen that Karim approved someone's
request to join ~ubuntu-eg directly after Toulan gave Admin rights to
Council team, I think you know what does this mean, simply, it's Karim
telling us: "I'm still here". So, please stop behaving neutrally, it's your
responsibility to clear things out and never keep pending "incidents".
We're moving to a full democratic shape, we do it completely or not at all!

See, I've replied to each of your arguments separately, I hope you can do
the same so things can be very clear to me.

>
>
> Best regards,
> Ahmed Toulan.
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-eg-council
> Post to     : ubuntu-eg-council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-eg-council
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>