ubuntu-phone team mailing list archive

[Michael Zanetti <michael.zanetti@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi,

In case of a deep stack app, or where the toolbar is really an important piece 
of the UI and must be present, I guess the developer could always do this

tools: ToolbarActions {
  opened: true
  locked: true
  ...
}

Only caveat is that the toolbar can hide content and in this case the user 
won't be able to reach it but that can be fixed by using appropriate margins.

After playing around with this a bit I start to like the combination... Its 
pretty cool how the toolbar pops in automatically in the deep page stack, 
while it hides itself automatically on tabs where it's more of an optional 
element.

Way better than on my previous phones where the toolbar was either there or 
not, even if used just once per year.

I agree that on deep page stacks pulling up the toolbar manually on each step 
is not really nice.

Hope this helps,
Michael

On Friday 14 June 2013 16:55:42 Alex Tyler wrote:
> I've read most of these mails, but not all so may have missed one or two.
> 
> There absolutely needs to be a better method of approach. There are
> applications made that will be 4-5 pages deep that the user will want
> to back out of. Swiping from the bottom and pressing back when 8 pages
> deep is not an acceptable solution.
> 
> Swiping the page away (ala Blackberry 10/iOS7) would likely be fine
> and not interfere with the OS level swipes. I have created
> applications that utilize these two paradigms together, and don't
> recall confusing myself or my users (one of them being my significant
> other, and she's the perfect test case).
> 
> If however, this solution is deemed unacceptable, I do have another:
> 
> If the application is x amount of levels deep and the user has pressed
> back and reverted to a previous page that is still not the root, then
> the toolbar stays open until the user interacts with content or backs
> out enough to be on the root page. I'm not a massive fan of this
> approach, but it is an alternative.
> 
> I can get a demo of this up either today or tomorrow, depending on time.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex
> 
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 1:19 AM, Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > I'm not going to comment on everything in your post, but watch the first
> > 20
> > seconds of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx2nMaBOHek
> > 
> > Notice how the settings are not on a different level in the page stack?
> > They're in a separate tab. The back button is not used here. This is how
> > many of the apps are being designed, and this is why the back button is
> > not
> > of supreme importance. I'm also very surprised that you consider the iPad
> > to have been a mistake to give your dad. I know many grandparents who
> > love their iPads for the very reason that there is nothing they can do
> > wrong there, and settings virtually never need to be changed because
> > there are so few of them. It's far, far easier for the ones I know to use
> > it than Windows. I'm not saying your statement about your dad is
> > incorrect, I just find it very interesting. Is he most comfortable with
> > Windows then? I'm curious, but of course, this is a little off topic.
> > 
> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Daniel Clem <clem11388@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> First sorry if i misunderstand somethings as i'm not a dev, but wish to
> >> give my feedback and opinions as best i can.
> >> 
> >> I looked at the wiki just now, so now I understand the difference of the
> >> intended flat UI vs page stack UI. So perhaps Ubuntu Touch apps will be
> >> developed differently than Android apos. But the FTP I mentioned about I
> >> was just saying about how to reveal the bottom menu. Like I have 4
> >> buttons on my Droid, menu, home, back, then search. And the menu was
> >> what I was referring to on FTP and games. I did watch the Evernote video
> >> you shared. If an app can not scroll up or sideways (any app that is
> >> simple and small or is a game), then reveal menu on scroll wouldn't work
> >> (in my opinion). And since almost every app would probably need a menu
> >> of some kind then you need the revealing to always be the same. Whereas
> >> the Evernote menu works differently than the rest of iOS creating
> >> inconsistency on the device.
> >> 
> >> As for Back button perhaps I am not visualizing how apps will be laid out
> >> in this Flat, Deep, and Page Stack style of UI's, so please excuse my
> >> assumptions coming from Android. But I don't think its a good idea to
> >> have
> >> the "Back” action only available in the menu tool bar on the bottom. 2
> >> reasons being.
> >> -being hidden by default, it slows the UI flow because I go into settings
> >> of some apps a lot to change things, try it, then go back change again,
> >> try
> >> it again, ect over and over when playing with new apps. And having to
> >> reveal the hidden menu just to get to a back button seems really
> >> cumbersome and slow. The Back action (in my opinion) should be done with
> >> a gesture. So backing out of settings or other places (SMS, Emails,
> >> Contacts Info, Music Library, ect ) is just as fact as pressing the back
> >> button on my Droid.
> >> 
> >> Backing out of iOS settings, menus and other things has always been very
> >> unintuitive for me. My dad has a ipad (Present for him, big mistake :-/ )
> >> and he always has trouble and asks me for help. So please don't take iOS
> >> as
> >> a great example as its my least enjoyable OS.
> >> 
> >> God Bless
> >> 
> >> Clem
> >> 
> >> Lou Greenwood <lougreenwood@xxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> Excuse me if I'm misunderstadning you, but an FTP app wouldn't require a
> >>> back button as it isn't a page stack, same goes for (most) games, they
> >>> use
> >>> custom UI's (think Angry Birds etc).
> >>> 
> >>> http://design.ubuntu.com/apps/global-patterns/navigation
> >>> 
> >>> From what I understand, Back is used in a very specific set of
> >>> circumstances, these are _only_ page stack views beyond the 1st page. As
> >>> an
> >>> example, opening the settings app for the first time wouldn't have a
> >>> back
> >>> button, but navigating to 'settings > general > option 3 > bla' would
> >>> require a back button for each layer of the hierarchy.
> >>> 
> >>> To my eyes, the issue just isn't one of discoverability, or familiarity,
> >>> but also one of adding un-necessary gestures, movements and actions to
> >>> reveal a tool bar _every time_ a user needs to go navigate back. The
> >>> issue
> >>> is form over function in an attempt at creating a chromeless fullscreen
> >>> layout. Hiding the back button in all instances only serves to add
> >>> complexity in an attempt to create a superficial minimalism.
> >>> 
> >>> Don't get me wrong, I'm vocal about this because I think the OS is a
> >>> beautiful piece of design, not because I want to pick holes. I don't
> >>> think
> >>> that hiding a critical navigation device serves the purpose of the
> >>> vision -
> >>> "...give a
> >>> very natural feel to touch screen interactions and require minimal
> >>> effort
> >>> from the use."
> >>> 
> >>> http://design.ubuntu.com/apps/get-started/design-vision
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Again, take a look at this video example Evernote I uploaded, it's a
> >>> beautiful method for dealing with toolbars, but I suggest it _only_ in
> >>> the
> >>> areas in deep page stack views -
> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX1xelZhkEU
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Warmest regards
> >>> 
> >>> Lou
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 13 Jun 2013, at 22:33, Daniel Clem <clem11388@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Non-dev comment:
> >>> Revealing controls on scroll up would work if you want it to be same for
> >>> all apps, as not all apps scroll. Such as the FTP server app I use for
> >>> my
> >>> Droid. Or video games that need a.menu for settings and saving games,
> >>> but no scrolling at all.
> >>> 
> >>> My personal opinion is this menu should hide by default but leave a very
> >>> visible shadow over the bottom of the screen (ontop the app all the
> >>> time)
> >>> done in such a way to hint that something in hidden there.
> >>> 
> >>> The whole system here is based on short and long swipes. If the user
> >>> doesn't know to short swipe up for the menu, then they most likely don't
> >>> yet know any of the other swipe actions either. A tutorial to teach the
> >>> first user is all that is needed, then that user would teach their
> >>> friends/family that use it. That.is the only ways ANYone learns
> >>> Android, WebOS or any new system.
> >>> 
> >>> Sidenote on back button actions. Short swipe up shows the menu, what
> >>> does
> >>> a long swipe up do? Could a long swipe up be use for "Back” action? I
> >>> use
> >>> the back button ALLLLL the time in every app, including the apps someone
> >>> else mentioned weren't common for back actions. As a user I bounce from
> >>> one
> >>> part of an app to another using "back” because few if any apps are
> >>> designed
> >>> in such a way that any feature or area can quickly be reached by any
> >>> other
> >>> part. So backing out to a common are is what's needed most the time even
> >>> if
> >>> its only one level deep.
> >>> 
> >>> What do you all think?
> >>> Thank you and God Bless,
> >>> Clem
> >>> 
> >>> Lou Greenwood <lougreenwood@xxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> My personal opinion is that it's possible to find a solution which
> >>>> works
> >>>> for all situations, rather than creating fragmentation in the UI by
> >>>> letting
> >>>> individual dev's make too many choices.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 1. Use the developer’s toolkit
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Here is our handy developer’s toolkit which contains all the essential
> >>>> building blocks to
> >>>> 
> >>>> help you get started! We use our building blocks to keep our apps
> >>>> consistent, and so we
> >>>> 
> >>>> don’t carry other platform’s UI elements or behaviours.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> /\ http://design.ubuntu.com/apps/get-started/make-it-ubuntu
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I've just uploaded a short clip of the Evernote app on iOS, the way it
> >>>> handles the toolbar is beautifully intuitive and invisible.
> >>>> 
> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX1xelZhkEU
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Something like this Evernote example (default visible, hides on
> >>>> scroll/interaction, reveals on scroll up), which is  _only_ implemented
> >>>> on
> >>>> deep page stack pages would be my suggestion. As far as I can see from
> >>>> the
> >>>> design spec, no other page types have this 'back' problem. See this
> >>>> link for the various page types >
> >>>> http://design.ubuntu.com/apps/global-patterns/navigation.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Lou
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 13 Jun 2013, at 18:18, Omar B. <estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> Some apps don't have a problem with users going "back". For example the
> >>>> *Friends* app shows both its Breadcrumbs and the bottom toolbar by
> >>>> default:
> >>>> 
> >>>> http://youtu.be/Q566IGyVB0o?t=8m36s
> >>>> 
> >>>> Apps should probably decide if they want to show these toolbars by
> >>>> default (or when one goes deeper in the stack like others mentioned) if
> >>>> its
> >>>> better for their users (and allow users to hide them if they want more
> >>>> screen). I think this approach might be better than trying a "one fits
> >>>> all".
> >>>> 
> >>>> Regards.
> >>>> 
> >>>> > Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 17:02:58 +0100
> >>>> > From: mpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> > To: ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-phone] [Design] Page stack back gesture
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>>> > Hash: SHA1
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > Scott May wrote on 12/06/13 12:33:
> >>>> > > Yeah I'm a "me too" on the concern that the "back" button is too
> >>>> > > hidden given it's frequent use. Perhaps we won't need "back" so
> >>>> > > much in this new environment?
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > The System Settings design uses deep page stacks -- for example, five
> >>>> > levels deep when setting a background picture.
> >>>> > <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Appearance#Phone>
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > Discoverability of "Back" is my biggest concern with System Settings
> >>>> > right now. In a couple of cases I've specified that the toolbar
> >>>> > should
> >>>> > be visible all the time: for example, the screen for choosing an area
> >>>> > of the background picture. But that's only because the toolbar
> >>>> > contains other buttons on those particular screens.
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > > In any case, with gestures we need to be very mindful of how apps
> >>>> > > are going to operate. We don't want to offer a gesture that might
> >>>> > > look anything like something you might do in reasonable use of some
> >>>> > > app that doesn't exist on this platform yet. Think about about
> >>>> > > what you do on the screen when say, using a map, drawing a picture,
> >>>> > > moving a piece in a game etc, etc. I think gestures coming in from
> >>>> > > the edge are fairly safe, but the main screen area is for the
> >>>> > > app...
> >>>> > > 
> >>>> > > ...
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > A gesture might be more efficient than revealing the toolbar then
> >>>> > tapping Back. But I doubt it would be more discoverable.
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > - --
> >>>> > mpt
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >>>> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
> >>>> > Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > iEYEARECAAYFAlG57TEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoGzwCgo4vTTmdYlcLHYGnl0LQz71HC
> >>>> > eckAoI1i56T817vHSEfYS/WGBaHTkfV5
> >>>> > =s1ad
> >>>> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >>>> > 
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>>> > Post to : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>>> > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> > 
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> > 
> >     Josh
> > 
> > --
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> > Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp