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Hello Paulo,
Thanks for the reply.
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Paulo J. S. Silva<pjssilva@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ryan,
> Why did you answer directly to me? Shouldn't the discussion take place
> in the list?
Yes. This was my mistake, I clicked to reply just to you and then
logged off, not realizing I didn't send it to the list. Please feel
free to forward the discussion!
> Do you have some hard data to back up your assertions on the fact that
> repeated notifications + a well designed icon on the panel versus a
> pop-under window will generate fewer updates? Do you know about any real
> experiment in this area? I would certainly like to see such data. Or is
> it just a hint, or "common-sense" (which is the most rare sense of all,
> I certainly don't have much :-)?
I do not have data and I am not a UI researcher with any formal
training, so please excuse my inability to use proper citations to
back the assertion. My experience is based on watching Windows users
use Ubuntu 9.04. Every time we have a new release I show it to some of
my colleagues and make notes as to what they have difficulties with,
what they like, etc. I do not know that a "well-designed icon on the
panel" could not be better than a pop-under, that would be a very bold
statement I think as some excellent design might solve the problem in
a way I cannot even imagine yet. What I believe is that the pop-under
works better than the way we used to do it, and better than the way
that many Windows antiviruses and update programs work.
> What I would expect with the flashing pop-under (it still flashes, or
> did it change?), is that the user that wants to ignore it would close
> the update-manager application to get rid of it. I was doing just that
> whenever I didn't want to stop my work at the moment the pop-under
> appeared. Many of my friends are doing the same.
Perhaps a good compromise would be to turn the update manager into an
icon in the status applet if it is closed before updates are applied.
That way it is still annoying enough that people see it, but does not
disappear entirely when it is closed. An option to suppress flashing
might be nice too.
> The bug report has also
> many people talking about non-technical users that were trained to close
> pop-up/unders as a possible sign of virus or something. I can certainly
> see my mother doing the same.
My common sense says that it won't be a big problem, and I haven't
seen anyone be confused in that way yet. Pop-unders containing
advertisements definitely trigger that reflex, but as this is a very
orderly and useful widow without any garish images or exclamation
points, I think we are treading on relatively safe ground.
> I believe that the best behavior to ensure upgrade for those "human"
> users you talk about (we are all human, aren't we?), is the following:
To be clear, I don't believe I am "human". Most computer users don't
have the same approach to maintenance and will neglect it if it is not
made super simple and automatic. We're very close to that, and I think
that the pop-under is one step closer, not one step further away.
Interacting with windows listed in the bottom bar is very natural for
almost all users.
>
> Best,
>
> Paulo
Thank you for your response, and again please excuse my error in
replying only to you. I hope we can work together with all the Ayatana
folks and find an excellent solution!
Yours sincerely,
Ryan Prior
P.S.
> Obs3: Writing that "need to submit to either adjust it to the old way or
> get accustomed to the new way", is certainly not a very positive or
> humanistic way of defending a point of view...
Truly, a statement like that cannot be a defense of a point of view.
What I mean to say is that, technical users complaining about a change
made to simplify things for non-technical users does not cause me
alarm. I think it is to be expected that whenever things are changed
for the benefit of non-technical users, it may make things a little
less convenient for the people who were used to the old way. After
all, if a technical user initially designed the system, she would make
it easy for technical users to handle. Does that sound less negative,
I hope? =D
> Em Dom, 2009-06-14 às 22:10 -0400, Ryan Prior escreveu:
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Paulo J. S. Silva<pjssilva@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> > The purpose of this message is to present an alternative that I believe
>> > is in line with the spirit of osd-notifier and that would avoid the
>> > users of obtrusive pop-unders.
>>
>> You say that the pop-under windows are obtrusive, which implies being
>> so noticeable as to be undesirable.
>>
>> I can understand that for folks who pay close attention to computer
>> screens, an indicator icon is fine and a pop-under window seems like
>> overkill. I am guessing that if we've got 300-odd upset users in the
>> bug tracker or brainstorm, these are the people who can watch small
>> icons just fine and have a low tolerance for the operating system
>> opening windows when you didn't ask it to.
>>
>> However, I think that you and all of the folks upset by the change
>> need to submit to either adjust it to the old way or get accustomed to
>> the new way. For the vast majority of computer users I know, small
>> icons go unnoticed. On Windows, clicking a small icon in the task bar
>> can do any number of frightening things and many Windows users who
>> have come to Ubuntu are shy about clicking icons that aren't tied to
>> an application they've installed. These are the "human" users for whom
>> we're designing.
>>
>> Pop-under windows should rarely be seen, and should only be used for
>> mission-critical cases. Getting users to update their computers is
>> mission-critical. Ubuntu users are a lot more secure when updates are
>> downloaded speedily. The fact is that pop-under windows get the job
>> done in a way that little icons don't. It is a relatively drastic
>> measure, but getting updates out there is the most critical part of
>> the security pipeline and so to do less is, in my opinion, neglecting
>> the user.
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your input. I hope that you can understand my point of
>> view and I also hope that, when you take a longer view of the
>> situation for computer updates, you'll agree that the benefits
>> outweigh the drawbacks.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ryan Prior
>>
> --
> Paulo José da Silva e Silva
> Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação
> (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.)
> Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil
>
> e-mail: pjssilva@xxxxxxxxxx Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva
>
> Teoria é o que não entendemos o (Theory is something we don't)
> suficiente para chamar de prática. (understand well enough to call
> practice)
>
>
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