unity-design team mailing list archive

[Marc Lajoie <manorapide@xxxxxxxxx>]

Design may or may not be an exact science--about the facts, as you say--but
what people actually prefer certainly isn't. There may be occasions when the
majority of people would prefer a slightly sub-optimal solution to the
design-dictated optimal solution, for aesthetic reasons for which no
adequately descriptive science exists. You might make the ultimate interface
from a design perspective, but what use is it if no one wants to use it?
That's why it's important for designers to interract with users, users who
*gasp* may not be design experts themselves, on lists such as these. Staying
in a design bubble with your designer friends doesn't necessarily make good
design (from a user perspective). Note: I have great respect for the field
of design; Less for elitism.

Marc Lajoie

ps. I don't mean this as an attack. I just feel I have a right, as a user,
to voice my opinion on what sort of interface I, personally, would like to
use, and feel that discouraging the participation of ordinary users in the
design process is to no one's benefit in the long-run.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Mitja Pagon <mitja.pagon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Peace indeed. I'm not implying that you or anyone else is stupid, I'm
> stating, and as irritating as it might be to you, the fact, that most
> people on here (most, not all) don't understand what interaction design is
> about (and that implies lack of understading, not supidity), and you just
> proved my point, interaction design is not about personal opinions, it's a
> science backed by facts. Issues raised are backed by actual science your
> advantages are mostly a personal opinion (you are more that welcome to prove
> otherwise with actual facts).
>
> And this is an issues that can hardly be resolved by a community, just like
> nuclear plant can't be built by bakers, they simply lack the knowledge.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitja
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marc Lajoie" <manorapide@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Mitja Pagon" <mitja.pagon@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: Ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, appi2012@xxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:23:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
>
> You can drop the ad hominem attacks. The everyone's-stupid-but-me attitude
> is not very productive.
>
> Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes visual
> clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an "indicator" conveying
> useful information for which it's not suited (more standardized and
> consistent menu headings across different applications is definitely
> something to be encouraged, taking the guesswork out of menu hunting).
>
> Disadvantages: Menu is disconnected from unmaximized windows, potentially
> causing confusion; Menu is not discoverable for first-time user (new user
> won't know where the menu is unless he/she accidentally hovers over the
> panel)
>
> To say there are no advantages is disingenuous. You believe the
> disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Fine, good. I believe the reverse.
> You are entitled to your opinion. So am I. The community will decide.
> Peace, man.
> Marc Lajoie
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Mitja Pagon <mitja.pagon@xxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>
>> And what may those advantages be? Not every application is a web browser
>> and not all applications are the same, so this "trend" Chrome supposedly
>> started does not automatically apply to all and every application. Also this
>> quest for abolishing menus is complete nonsense propagated by people who
>> mostly know nothing about user interface design / interaction design, user
>> experience design , and this place (ayatana list) is, despite an occasional
>> good idea, littered with people like that. Sometimes it makes me feel like
>> most people use Ubuntu to just to surf pr0n.
>>
>> Different people have stated multiple issues with this hidden menus
>> integrated title/controls and many more issues arise when trying to tackle
>> those issues while the benefits are almost non existent, and that is a
>> dictionary example of bad design.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mitja
>>
>>
>> Mitja Pagon
>>
>>
>> Inueni d.o.o., Pot pod Gradiščem 4, SI 4202 Naklo
>> Tel.: +386 41 521 729
>> e-naslov: mitja.pagon@xxxxxxxxxx, url: www.inueni.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marc Lajoie" <manorapide@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: appi2012@xxxxxxxxx
>> Cc: Ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:20:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
>>
>> I, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel
>> in Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in
>> Google Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and
>> the hiding of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking
>> forward to Natty.
>> So while I understand the concerns about the hidden menu, I agree with the
>> logic of not treating the menu as an indicator, and hiding it up in the
>> panel. Yes, there are a couple of small problems with this approach (mostly
>> discoverability for new users, people using Natty for the very first time),
>> but my opinion is the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
>> My vote, for what it's worth, is to keep it the way it is!
>> That said, I would not oppose having the menu in the panel being shown by
>> default, instead of the title, in the case of non-maximized windows, with
>> the title/menu overlap occurring only for maximized windows.
>>
>> Marc Lajoie
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM, appi2012@xxxxxxxxx <appi2012@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
>>>> an application or window title.
>>>>
>>>> 1.  Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> 2.  It makes some functions effectively invisible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The above two problems are important to fix.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 3.  The application or window title becomes ugly when the menus appear.
>>>>
>>>
>>> #3 is not that big of a problem - we should avoid it when we can, but if
>>> its necessary, its better to have an eyesore than a interaction problem.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4.  The application or window title and the title bar are redundant, and
>>>>    sometimes inconsistent too.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Although this is a problem, a title is necessary for maximized windows,
>>> so it has to be shown for them.
>>>
>>> I proposed a solution to this earlier on this list, but unfortunately, it
>>> got no replies. However, I still believe that it can solve the problems
>>> brought up here.
>>>
>>> My basic idea is: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.html
>>>
>>> However, I have a change: The Application Title should only be shown for
>>> maximized windows, where it is necessary. Otherwise, only the menu should be
>>> visible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>