unity-design team mailing list archive

[Ian Santopietro <isantop@xxxxxxxxx>]

Google is excellent at collecting and analyzing data. However, the word
correct always means there's an opinion involved somewhere, and even if
most people believe an opinion to be correct, doesn't mean everyone
will.

Tabs on top and the Global Menu don't break each other, and aren't
nearly as mutually incompatible as you think. I use Firefox 4 with tabs
on top, along with the Unity Panel. Firefox still has a titlebar, even
with nothing else at the top of the screen (Menu turned off, no panel). 

Even if they did break each other, changing the entire interface on a
per app basis isn't a good idea either, as that would create huge
inconsistencies. I don't think we need a placeholder menu for windows
that don't otherwise have a menu, but getting rid of the panel for
Firefox only would present huge usability concerns.

On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 23:57 +0200, giff gill wrote:
> On 4/4/2011 10:57 PM, Ian Santopietro wrote:
> > There is no definitive fact that says that Google knows best. They 
> > have their preferences about UX, and Canonical has their's. Just 
> > because these two entities don't agree doesn't make one or the other 
> > right or wrong.
> Google knows about collecting data, lots of data, analysing it and 
> drawing the correct conclusion from it. That's what I meant by that, 
> sorry for the confusion.
> 
> It's not about disagreement here but the problem that menubar-on-top 
> breaks tabs-on-top.
> It's not that different design choices disagree theoretically but it's a 
> factual conflict between the two paradigms that can't coexist without 
> getting into each others way.
> > Most of Canonical's usability testing seems to indicate that it's 
> > easier to hit the Gobal menu. It's at the edge of the screen, so you 
> > only need to aim along one dimension. Plus, the first (Typically File) 
> > menu is in the exact same place every single time, even between a 
> > maximized vs. restored window. I've been using Unity since Alpha 3, 
> > and while the global menu isn't perfect, it is better than what we had 
> > before.
> Well, duh. That's what I'm talking about.
> But why put the file menu into that privileged spot if it only contains 
> a fallback menu no one uses?
> > Chrome and Firefox do it wrong, IMO. I use the global-menu firefox 
> > extension, and wish I could do that with Chrome. Cramming all of that 
> > menu into a single button is not ergonomic.
> It would be nice for example to directly address the tool menu with one 
> click, but probably those that do use these nested functions also tend 
> to be the ones who know and prefer keyboard shortcuts?
> There's always room for improvement but the basic design choice of 
> Chromium, the simple minimalistic design clearly pays off in terms of 
> rising market share and general user satisfaction.
> > The top panel displays a lot of information, including the menu, BFB, 
> > and indicators. most windows still have titlebars (Including Firefox 4).
> It doesn't. At least not in Windows.latest which clearly is the primary 
> focus of the UI team.
> > That won't be changing. Putting the menu there saves space because you 
> > don't need a menu bar or menu button anywhere else; it's all up there. 
> > The Show on hover is not great, usability wise, but there aren't a 
> > whole lot of viable alternatives. There have been some good 
> > exceptions, but with Unity at it's current state, I don't think it's 
> > realistic to try an reimplement that much code in such a short time.
> I agreed that this design makes sense IF:
> a) the screens is small (fullscreen, single task preferred)
> AND
> b) applications really need a menubar (not a fallback) and aren't served 
> better by tab bar on top.
> 
> It's great, I love it keep it. But don't make it default for user cases 
> that are served better by a different paradigm.
> > Your "Menus are outdated" arguement is invalid. There are lots of 
> > outdated items in the current Desktop Metaphor that are outdated, and 
> > revolution isn't the way to go there. Evolution keeps users much happier.
> I beg to differ. I don't have one but apparently these tablet things are 
> all rage and people who do have them start to use them more than their PCs.
> They als do seem happy with the new metaphor. It's no Desktop but last 
> time I checked it's still a graphical UI and Unity is going to support 
> touch input.
> > 2011/4/4 giff g <giffgilll@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:giffgilll@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >
> >
> >     In response to that apparent contradiction:
> >     When I talk about how the text menu is becoming obsolete I have
> >     native OS X applications in mind, modern "apps" written in Cocoa.
> >     Not "legacy" gtk2 programs that haven't seen an interface change in
> >     years or I have Windows 7 in mind, where IE, Office, built in programs
> >     like Wordpad and Paint switched to a menubar-less interface.
> >
> I forgot quite a few applications there. Windows Explorer, the image 
> viewer, the Windows Live suite, the media player. In fact of all the 
> popular first party programs notepad is the ONLY one with a menubar. 
> That should give us something to think about.
> I guess Apple also would love to get rid of their menubar given how Lion 
> is impregnated with iOS design metaphors and their first party apps do 
> just fine without ever having to touch the menubar (except for 
> preferences and if you want to check what version you are running).
> 
> In the spirit of anecdotal evidence I actually met several people who 
> never use the OS X menubar. If something isn't exposed in the main 
> window they call me complaining how "it doesn't work". I tell them the 
> function is right there in the preferences or somewhere obvious. Happens 
> repeatedly.
> The main problem clearly is that the menubar isn't anywhere near the 
> center of their attention and it is always disappearing "mysteriously". 
> Click on the desktop and Finder steals focus. No problem for single task 
> fullscreen but that isn't the only valid mode of Unity, right?
> 
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