dhis2-documenters team mailing list archive

[Cecilia Persson <cecilia@xxxxxxxxx>]

Very interesting! I'll test it this week. Would be great to have
integration with GitHub.
Kind regards,
Cecilia

On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Jason Pickering <
jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I found what looks like a too-good-to-be-true WebApp version of Oxygen
> from the Google Play Store, which offers integration with GitHub. It seems
> to work. Might offer a new editor to replace my beloved deprecated Serna.
> You can try it out by adding oXygen XML WebApp extension to Chrome. Seems
> pretty sweet, but not sure if this is just a demo or something which is
> actually fully functional and free?
>
> Regards,
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>> http://docbkx-tools.sourceforge.net/docbkx-samples/manual.html seems
>> to suggest 5.0 is now supported.
>>
>> One of the features i have seen touted in 5.1 which is also part of
>> DITA (and no doubt Flare) is support for "topics".  I guess the idea
>> here, to use the elearning jargon, is to be able to make reusabale
>> learning objects which can be differently combined in scorm modules
>> and the like.
>>
>> I do agree that at the moment the priority really should be more and
>> improved content.  While we have that content in docbook xxx xml we
>> know that it is not going to be lost and can be shimmied into whatever
>> the toolchain of the future might be.  In fact i am regretting getting
>> involved in this thread at all, but I am glad you got rid of the Serna
>> free comments :-)  Back to work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 April 2016 at 04:13, Jason Pickering <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Bob,
>> >
>> > Again, I think the fact that docbook has moved on is to us, not so
>> > important. We are using a very small subset of what docbook offers, and
>> > there are no real differences between 4.4 and 5.0 for our purposes, at
>> least
>> > which I have seen. One issue which we should investigate more is the
>> > supposed improved indexing in 5.0, which I have not been able to get to
>> > work.
>> >
>> > The major issue with upgrading the dependency from 4.4 to 4.5 of docbook
>> > seems to be the lack of a publicly available maven artifact for either
>> 4.4
>> > or 5.0. We could of course build it ourselves, or try and find somewhere
>> > where its actually available, but since I managed to get this
>> combination
>> > working, I never really investigated it further.
>> >
>> > So again to emphasize, the reason we are using 4.4 is because of the
>> tool
>> > chain (docbkx) and getting that to work with either Docbook 4.5 or 5.0.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Jason
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Jason I saw your sed script to remove comments.  That is that problem
>> >> solved :-)
>> >>
>> >> I don't have any problem with the docbook toolchain and wouldn't
>> >> lightly consider changing it.  I think it works well.  There is some
>> >> learning involved and a shortage of non-technical tooling but yet it
>> >> works well.  I would consider upgrading to 5.0 (or 5.1) as that might
>> >> widen the scope of tooling available and would be relatively painless.
>> >>
>> >> But I agree that we need to focus on the concrete requirements rather
>> >> than products.  And most of all, the content.
>> >>
>> >> On 7 April 2016 at 14:40, Jason Pickering <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Perhaps, but see my earlier mail regarding framework wars.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is the same discussion we are having about testing, use this
>> >> > framework
>> >> > or that framework. However, there are still too few tests, as no one
>> can
>> >> > agree.
>> >> >
>> >> > We have something which works. We have content which needs to be
>> >> > improved
>> >> > and updated. If there is a compelling reason to move away from
>> something
>> >> > which, albeit somewhat dated ...works, maybe it would be good to
>> outline
>> >> > the
>> >> > reasons for this change.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I see that Flare supports DITA, would that be a good alternative to
>> >> >> DocBook?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://dita.xml.org/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On a spectrum between low-level standardized technical docbook
>> through
>> >> >>> to "user friendly" (use Word), vendor-locked proprietary and patent
>> >> >>> encumbered technology, this one seems to fall on the far right :-)
>> >> >>> Not quite what I had in mind.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I can see the attraction but I would be very wary to go in this
>> >> >>> direction.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 7 April 2016 at 13:52, Rachael Brooke <rachael@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > Hi everyone,
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Cecilia and I have been thinking about trying out a new tool that
>> >> >>> > could
>> >> >>> > handle big documentation projects, translation files and other
>> >> >>> > resources. So
>> >> >>> > it's good timing that this issue is being raised by you.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > We were considering looking into a solution which you may know,
>> >> >>> > called
>> >> >>> > MadCap Flare: http://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > If you have any other suggestions, we'd be happy to hear your
>> >> >>> > thoughts.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Thanks for bringing this up - we're investigating!
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Rachael
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> > wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Would be good to hear from our new documentation experts
>> (Rachael
>> >> >>> >> and
>> >> >>> >> Cecilia) on this issue (what kinds of tools they would be
>> >> >>> >> comfortable
>> >> >>> >> with
>> >> >>> >> etc).
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Knut
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Bob Jolliffe
>> >> >>> >> <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Hi Jason, Lars
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> I am not sure the link about oxygen nested comments is really
>> >> >>> >>> addressing the "thing".
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> I agree with Lars that having the "<!-- Created by Serna Free
>> -->"
>> >> >>> >>> text inserted into all our documents is ugly, wrong and
>> >> >>> >>> misleading.
>> >> >>> >>> If you are using Serna Free I think it might be a simple
>> courtesy
>> >> >>> >>> to
>> >> >>> >>> just strip those comments before committing.  Of course its
>> >> >>> >>> possible
>> >> >>> >>> to forget and maybe some sort of removal hook could be
>> configured
>> >> >>> >>> automatically (sed, xsltproc ..) but its maybe not so hard to
>> just
>> >> >>> >>> delete the line.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> I am not sure of what the problem is with oxygen encountering
>> >> >>> >>> these
>> >> >>> >>> comments are though.  Maybe I also don't get the "thing" :-)  I
>> >> >>> >>> open
>> >> >>> >>> the docbook files with oxygen and don't encounter a problem
>> >> >>> >>> related
>> >> >>> >>> to
>> >> >>> >>> the comment.  The docbook4 "type" seems to be immediately
>> >> >>> >>> recognized
>> >> >>> >>> and I get a Docbook4 menu appear when I switch to author mode
>> >> >>> >>> whether
>> >> >>> >>> the comment is there or not.  Is it an oxygen version issue (I
>> >> >>> >>> currently use 17.1) or is there some other issue I am missing?
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Though I think there are deeper issues at play.  First is that
>> >> >>> >>> Serna
>> >> >>> >>> Free seems no longer to be maintained (as a free version).  One
>> >> >>> >>> consequence of this being that using it keeps us frozen in
>> time at
>> >> >>> >>> docbook 4.4.  The last release of the docbook 4.x series was
>> 4.5
>> >> >>> >>> back
>> >> >>> >>> in 2006.  The 5.0 (and now 5.1) series has been out for quite a
>> >> >>> >>> long
>> >> >>> >>> time now (2009?).  AFAIK the only reason for sticking with 4.x
>> has
>> >> >>> >>> been the availability of Serna Free.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> (Which is not a small thing.  The sad truth is that  another
>> good
>> >> >>> >>> free
>> >> >>> >>> candidate for docbook editing by non-technical authors hasn't
>> ever
>> >> >>> >>> emerged.  Of course if you are more than a bit geeky then emacs
>> >> >>> >>> does
>> >> >>> >>> a
>> >> >>> >>> good job.  But even I don't use emacs anymore for editing
>> docbook
>> >> >>> >>> documents.  I use oxygen, which is not free.)
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Two thoughts come to mind:
>> >> >>> >>> (i) it probably really makes sense to rejoin the (docbook)
>> world
>> >> >>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>> move from 4.4 to 5.0.  Particularly if the now defunct Serna
>> Free
>> >> >>> >>> is
>> >> >>> >>> the only factor holding us back.  I understand that there are
>> >> >>> >>> transforms available to make this a painless journey.  The best
>> >> >>> >>> available in terms of free editing tools with a strong docbook
>> >> >>> >>> focus
>> >> >>> >>> seems to be the eclipse DEP4E plugin.  Otherwise there are the
>> >> >>> >>> non-free tools as well as host of xml schema aware editors.
>> >> >>> >>> Admittedly none of these really qualify as eminently suitable
>> for
>> >> >>> >>> non-technical authors so the problem isn't really completely
>> >> >>> >>> solved,
>> >> >>> >>> but maybe improved slightly.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> (ii) more radically, it might be time to consider moving from
>> >> >>> >>> docbook
>> >> >>> >>> altogether.  There are a host of "cool" alternatives (markdown
>> and
>> >> >>> >>> friends) none of which I am fond of, but they have enthusiastic
>> >> >>> >>> supporters.  To me they all seem like endless reinventions of
>> >> >>> >>> roff/nroff/groff and certainly lack the maturity of docbook.
>>  But
>> >> >>> >>> maybe the world has moved to a stage that its possible to
>> consider
>> >> >>> >>> editing html5/css3 documents directly?  Certainly there is
>> >> >>> >>> considerable user friendly editing tools available.  And
>> >> >>> >>> conversion
>> >> >>> >>> to
>> >> >>> >>> pdf seems not to be a problem.  Though whether this would cause
>> >> >>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>> clean structure of documents to descend into anarchy I don't
>> >> >>> >>> really
>> >> >>> >>> know.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> My 2 cents.  I would certainly advocate (i) above (though admit
>> >> >>> >>> its a
>> >> >>> >>> strong response to just getting rid of Serna Free comments).
>> (ii)
>> >> >>> >>> frightens me quite a bit. Certainly would be a lot of work.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> In the end comes down to (i) who will do most of the
>> documentation
>> >> >>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>> what do they like or tolerate, (ii) what effort is justified to
>> >> >>> >>> fiddle
>> >> >>> >>> with what is really quite a nice looking set of existing
>> >> >>> >>> documentation.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> For the moment lets at least agree to keep those horrible
>> comments
>> >> >>> >>> out.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Bob
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On 6 April 2016 at 11:31, Jason Pickering
>> >> >>> >>> <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> > For instance, perhaps this
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> > http://www.oxygenxml.com/forum/topic3658.html
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> > which seems to describe a means of getting around comments.
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Jason Pickering
>> >> >>> >>> > <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >> Hi Lars,
>> >> >>> >>> >> I think there must be a way around this, and I would not be
>> in
>> >> >>> >>> >> favor
>> >> >>> >>> >> at
>> >> >>> >>> >> all of ditching Serna. Its a good tool and not everyone has
>> >> >>> >>> >> access
>> >> >>> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >>> >> a
>> >> >>> >>> >> relatively expensive commercial tool like Oxygen.
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >> Serna Free inserts this automatically unfortunately when it
>> >> >>> >>> >> saves
>> >> >>> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >>> >> document, but lets look for a look around to deal with this
>> in
>> >> >>> >>> >> Oxygen.
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >> Regards,
>> >> >>> >>> >> Jason
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Lars Helge Øverland
>> >> >>> >>> >> <lars@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Hi,
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> re the documentation.The Serna editor horribly inserts a
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> <!-- Created by Serna Free -->
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> comment in all files it creates before the DTD. This throws
>> >> >>> >>> >>> off
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Oxygen
>> >> >>> >>> >>> from detecting it to be a Docbook format. Lets not use
>> Serna
>> >> >>> >>> >>> anymore
>> >> >>> >>> >>> or at
>> >> >>> >>> >>> least make sure we don't get comments in the beginning of
>> >> >>> >>> >>> docbook
>> >> >>> >>> >>> xml
>> >> >>> >>> >>> files.
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Lars
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> --
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Lars Helge Øverland
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Lead developer, DHIS 2
>> >> >>> >>> >>> University of Oslo
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Skype: larshelgeoverland
>> >> >>> >>> >>> http://www.dhis2.org
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>> >> >>> >>> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> >> --
>> >> >>> >>> >> Jason P. Pickering
>> >> >>> >>> >> email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>> >> tel:+46764147049
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> > --
>> >> >>> >>> > Jason P. Pickering
>> >> >>> >>> > email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>> > tel:+46764147049
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>> >> >>> >>> > Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>> >> >>> >>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>> >> >>> >>> Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>> >> >>> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> --
>> >> >>> >> Knut Staring
>> >> >>> >> Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo
>> >> >>> >> Norway: +4791880522
>> >> >>> >> Skype: knutstar
>> >> >>> >> http://dhis2.org
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Knut Staring
>> >> >> Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo
>> >> >> Norway: +4791880522
>> >> >> Skype: knutstar
>> >> >> http://dhis2.org
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Jason P. Pickering
>> >> > email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>> >> > tel:+46764147049
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jason P. Pickering
>> > email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>> > tel:+46764147049
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jason P. Pickering
> email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
> tel:+46764147049
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
> Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>