kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Rob Frohne <rob.frohne@...>]

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Hi All,

I don't fully understand all the different files, and differences in the 
Save commands below. I think it all needs more explanation and/or thought.

There is a lot to be gained by trying to make the menu system fit the 
thinking of the uninitiated user. We want to make the learning curve as 
shallow as possible, by making the user interface as similar to the new 
user's expectations as we can. It will cut down on documentation 
efforts. It will save new users much frustration and time, and it will 
save developers and experienced users support time.

What does the user want when he looks for "Save As?" Perhaps he/she is 
asking for a way to make a copy of the present whole hierarchy. He may 
not yet understand that there are many files that the information is 
stored in. He just wants an identical copy of the schematic he is 
working on with a different name. Maybe it is possible to provide him 
with something like that, even if there are many files. "Effective 
interfaces do not concern the user with the inner workings of the 
system. Work is carefully and continuously saved, with full option for 
the user to undo any activity at any time." (Reference: 
http://www.asktog.com/basics/firstPrinciples.html) Perhaps what you are 
calling "Save" should be called "Save All Files," or "Save Eeschema 
Project" so the user won't expect "Save As."

Please realize that the natural thing for a developer to do is to 
consider what the developer wants in an interface. This is likely to 
lead to difficulty for the new user, because the new user doesn't 
understand the inner workings, or because the developer's particular 
computer use habits differ from the user's. Somehow you need to put 
yourself in the new user's place, so you can understand the user 
interface from their perspective. As a relatively new user and an 
engineering professor who wants to teach his students to use Kicad, this 
is the biggest present weakness of Kicad (that "standard" operations 
which work in other software do not work, or work the same way, in 
Kicad). An example of this that is particularly frustrating to me is 
that you cannot "ctrl-click" on objects and add/subtract them to/from a 
selection list. You have to hope that the objects you want to select 
fit inside a rectangle of vertical/horizontal orientation. Seeing where 
the border of an object is for the selection rectangle isn't easy. The 
selection process is part of the action (like move or drag). In other 
programs it is separate. In Eeschema, you don't see what is selected 
until you actually move or drag it or whatever. If there wasn't for the 
good undo feature, you would really be in trouble with this behavior. 
This bothered me so much that I did start to read the source and work on 
fixing it. It is still on my to do list.

My point is this: please think carefully about the new user's experience 
with the UI. Like Jean-Pierre says, it needs to be "very clear," and I 
would like to add "easy."

Thanks,

Rob

On 01/20/2010 11:33 PM, jean-pierre.charras@... wrote:
>
> wafeliron a écrit :
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> As you already noticed Jean-Pierre and I did enhance the menubars of 
>> almost all the applications. In the beginning this will be new and 
>> irritating but this is better than before and fits also "standard to 
>> other applications" .
>>
>> @Jean-Pierre: Would it not be better in eeschema to change the whole 
>> sentences of save, save as and save project as in pcbnew. The extra 
>> information can be put in the statusbar message. And the users that 
>> using the application know which file it is going to save if you have 
>> the mainframe. Except for the libedit and modeditors. So i prefer to 
>> modify the normal operations to Save, Save as... and Save Project. 
>> Look at PCBNew if you not already noticed.
>>
> Pcbnew can use Save and Save as without problem, because there is only 
> one file to save.
>
> This is not the case for Eeschema.
> Eeschema usually handles many files because many schematic projects 
> uses hierarchy, i.e. more than one file to load/save.
>
> So "normal" operation are not Save, Save as (No meaning for Eeschema), but
> Save Whole Hierarchy (or Schematic project)
> This is the "normal" save command, that cannot have an equivalent Save 
> as , because it handles more than one filename.
> And also creates the library cache for the project.
> and the *auxiliary* save commands
> Save Current
> Save Current as.
> And do not create a library cache.
>
> If these 3 save command are not *very clear* in menus, *serious* 
> mistakes can happen.
>
> I do not see a big advantage to do like "standard other applications" 
> for a non standard application.
>
>> We are moving up, and OS X prerelease is getting close. Marco and I 
>> will take care of it and possibly other people will.
>>
> Good.
>
> Note also I modified hot keys notations (not yet fully tested for 
> Shift+Ctrl+x hotkeys).
> They appear now in menus like "standard other applications".
> So you can now modify your changes (whenever that possible) to match 
> the user selectable hotkeys feature used in kicad.
> (currently this is not the case).
>
> Note also a change in the UI involves a documentation update.
> So avoid to change the UI before the next release (I just finished the 
> documentation update for Eeschema and Cvpcb)
> Pcbnew is coming soon (after the Dick's changes).
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>
> Maître de conférences
> Directeur d'études 2ieme année.
> Génie Electrique et Informatique Industrielle 2
> Institut Universitaire de Technologie 1 de Grenoble
> BP 67, 38402 St Martin d'Heres Cedex
>
> Recherche :
> GIPSA-LAB - INPG
> Rue de la Houille Blanche
> 38400 Saint Martin d'Heres
> 
> 

-- 
Rob Frohne, Ph.D., P.E.
E.F. Cross School of Engineering
Walla Walla University
100 SW 4th Street
College Place, WA 99324
(509) 527-2075	http://people.wallawalla.edu/~rob.frohne

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Hi All,<br>
<br>
I don't fully understand all the different files, and differences in
the Save commands below.&nbsp; I think it all needs more explanation and/or
thought.<br>
<br>
There is a lot to be gained by trying to make the menu system fit the
thinking of the uninitiated user.&nbsp; We want to make the learning curve
as shallow as possible, by making the user interface as similar to the
new user's expectations as we can.&nbsp; It will cut down on documentation
efforts.&nbsp; It will save new users much frustration and time, and it will
save developers and experienced users support time.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
What does the user want when he looks for "Save As?"&nbsp; Perhaps he/she is
asking for a way to make a copy of the present whole hierarchy.&nbsp; He may
not yet understand that there are many files that the information is
stored in.&nbsp; He just wants an identical copy of the schematic he is
working on with a different name.&nbsp; Maybe it is possible to provide him
with something like that, even if there are many files.&nbsp; "Effective
interfaces do not concern the user with the inner workings of
the system. Work is carefully and continuously saved, with full option
for the user to undo any activity at any time." (Reference:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.asktog.com/basics/firstPrinciples.html";>http://www.asktog.com/basics/firstPrinciples.html</a>)&nbsp; Perhaps what you
are calling "Save" should be called "Save All Files," or "Save Eeschema
Project" so the user won't expect "Save As."&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Please realize that the natural thing for a developer to do is to
consider what the developer wants in an interface.&nbsp; This is likely to
lead to difficulty for the new user, because the new user doesn't
understand the inner workings, or because the developer's particular
computer use habits differ from the user's.&nbsp; Somehow you need to put
yourself in the new user's place, so you can understand the user
interface from their perspective.&nbsp; As a relatively new user and an
engineering professor who wants to teach his students to use Kicad,
this is the biggest present weakness of Kicad (that "standard"
operations which work in other software do not work, or work the same
way, in Kicad). &nbsp; An example of this that is particularly frustrating
to me is that you cannot "ctrl-click" on objects and add/subtract them
to/from a selection list.&nbsp; You have to hope that the objects you want
to select fit inside a rectangle of vertical/horizontal orientation.&nbsp;
Seeing where the border of an object is for the selection rectangle
isn't easy.&nbsp; The selection process is part of the action (like move or
drag).&nbsp; In other programs it is separate.&nbsp; In Eeschema, you don't see
what is selected until you actually move or drag it or whatever.&nbsp; If
there wasn't for the good undo feature, you would really be in trouble
with this behavior.&nbsp; This bothered me so much that I did start to read
the source and work on fixing it.&nbsp; It is still on my to do list.<br>
<br>
My point is this: please think carefully about the new user's
experience with the UI.&nbsp; Like Jean-Pierre says, it needs to be "very
clear," and I would like to add "easy."<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
On 01/20/2010 11:33 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jean-pierre.charras@...";>jean-pierre.charras@...</a> wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4B580348.6060702@..." type="cite"><span
style="display: none;">&nbsp;</span>

<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>wafeliron a &eacute;crit&nbsp;:
</p>
<blockquote cite="mid:hj7t4i+lodn@xxxxxxxxxxx" type="cite"> <span>&nbsp;</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p>Hello All,<br>
<br>
As you already noticed Jean-Pierre and I did enhance the menubars of
almost all the applications. In the beginning this will be new and
irritating but this is better than before and fits also "standard to
other applications" . <br>
<br>
@Jean-Pierre: Would it not be better in eeschema to change the whole
sentences of save, save as and save project as in pcbnew. The extra
information can be put in the statusbar message. And the users that
using the application know which file it is going to save if you have
the mainframe. Except for the libedit and modeditors. So i prefer to
modify the normal operations to Save, Save as... and Save Project. Look
at PCBNew if you not already noticed.<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Pcbnew can use Save and Save as without problem, because there is only
one file to save.<br>
<br>
This is not the case for Eeschema.<br>
Eeschema usually handles many files because many schematic projects
uses hierarchy, i.e. more than one file to load/save.<br>
<br>
So "normal" operation are not Save, Save as (No meaning for Eeschema),
but<br>
Save Whole Hierarchy (or Schematic project) <br>
This is the "normal" save command, that cannot have an equivalent Save
as , because it handles more than one filename.<br>
And also creates the library cache for the project.<br>
and the *auxiliary* save commands <br>
Save Current<br>
Save Current as.<br>
And do not create a library cache.<br>
<br>
If these 3 save command are not *very clear* in menus, *serious*
mistakes can happen.<br>
<br>
I do not see a big advantage to do like "standard other applications"
for a non standard application.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hj7t4i+lodn@xxxxxxxxxxx" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p>We are moving up, and OS X prerelease is getting close. Marco
and
I will take care of it and possibly other people will.<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Good.<br>
<br>
Note also I modified hot keys notations (not yet fully tested for
Shift+Ctrl+x hotkeys).<br>
They appear now in menus like "standard other applications"<wbr>.<br>
So you can now modify your changes (whenever that possible) to match
the user selectable hotkeys feature used in kicad.<br>
(currently this is not the case).<br>
<br>
Note also a change in the UI involves a documentation update.<br>
So avoid to change the UI before the next release (I just finished the
documentation update for Eeschema and Cvpcb)<br>
Pcbnew is coming soon (after the Dick's changes).<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

Ma&icirc;tre de conf&eacute;rences
Directeur d'&eacute;tudes 2ieme ann&eacute;e.
G&eacute;nie Electrique et Informatique Industrielle 2
Institut Universitaire de Technologie 1 de Grenoble
BP 67, 38402 St Martin d'Heres Cedex

Recherche :
GIPSA-LAB - INPG
Rue de la Houille Blanche
38400 Saint Martin d'Heres
</pre>
</div>


<!-- end group email --></blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Rob Frohne, Ph.D., P.E.
E.F. Cross School of Engineering
Walla Walla University
100 SW 4th Street
College Place, WA 99324
(509) 527-2075	<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://people.wallawalla.edu/~rob.frohne";>http://people.wallawalla.edu/~rob.frohne</a>
</pre>
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