kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Jon Evans <jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi David,

This is why other EDA tools have a clear differentiation between
hierarchical blocks (what you are talking about) and multi-sheet schematics
(what I am talking about).  The fact that KiCad mixes the two makes it
difficult to implement some features in a way similar to commercial EDA
tools.

-Jon

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 2:32 PM, David Godfrey <info@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Jon
>
> On 18/04/17 21:27, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>
> On 4/18/2017 9:03 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
>
> On 18.04.2017 14:55, Jon Evans wrote:
>
> (branched from the component table viewer thread)
>
> In my opinion, a schematic with multiple sheets is not like a text
> editor with multiple documents.  The schematic editor is working on a
> single project, and it should be way more common to apply operations
> (that might want to be undone) to all schematic sheets, than it is to
> apply operations across all files you happen to have open in a text
> editor (other than "find in files", of course).
>
> In my experience, other EDA tools work around the "undoing global
> changes" issue that JP mentioned in the same way that text editors do
> when you replace in multiple files -- they warn the user that the change
> cannot be undone, and sometimes leave the files/sheets in an "unsaved"
> state so there is actually a way to undo it for certain files (i.e. by
> closing them without saving)
>
>
> Hi Jon,
>
> I would suggest having one schematic file per schematic sheet. This
> would greatly simplify the undo/view model, while we could still have
> multiple documents open in tabs. Moreover, each sheet in a separate file
> would make design reuse much easier...
>
> This would break complex hierarchies where a file is referenced in more
> than one sheet.  Using separate files for each sheet actually makes
> designs less reusable in complex hierarchies.  It doesn't make sense to
> save the same file multiple times just for the reference designator
> differences.
>
> It would also break re-usability. I I have a schematic file that
> represents an instrument amp, and use it as a sheet multiple times, I'd
> then expect to modify the schematic once and have the change propagate
> across all instances of that sheet. (eg: adding an additional filter cap)
>
> Cheers,
> Tom
>
>
> -Jon
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 7:46 AM, Nox <noxfiregalaxy@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:noxfiregalaxy@xxxxxxxxx> <noxfiregalaxy@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
>     I agree with you about the multi file editor behaviour. There it is
>     natural that the undo/redo works per file. But is this behaviour
>     also reasonable for a schematic? I just checked the behaviour of
>     visual studio. There global replacement will be reverted if the
>     stack is in sync. Else only the active document is affected. So I
>     guess you are right. We have to first agree which way redo/undo
>     should work. Personally I would perfere to move to a "mixed" or
>     global redo/undo.
>
>     What do you think: how hard will it be to implement a "container"
>     undo/redo item which batchs multiple changes (e.g. for component
>     changes, annotation, etc) and has an ID to check with all open
>     sheets if the top most change matches. Of course it is questionable
>     if a "silent" partial undo/redo is the best way to handle desynced
>     stacks. Or might a global redo/undo will be easier to maintain? Or
>     should global operations simply always "break" the local undo/redo
>     stacks (so our "state of the art"-handling)?
>
>     P.S: should we branch the discussion here maybe?
>
>
>
>     Am 18.04.2017 um 09:12 schrieb jp charras:
>
>         Le 17/04/2017 à 22:51, Nox a écrit :
>
>             I know that I already suggested that in another context but
>             what about changing the undo/redo
>             semantic to the more common approach to maintain an global
>             undo/redo stack and switch the view
>             accordingly? I know that the "per screen" is the established
>             way in kicad and that it is very
>             dangerous to break existing workflows. But the undo/redo
>             behaviour is currently hardly
>             "understandable" for beginners. E.g. why does the undo not
>             follow my actions but stays on one view?
>             Why does exporting the netlist break the undo? Why can
>             automatic annotation not be reverted? The
>             undo list wiped on a frequently basis that personally i
>             hardly trust into the undo functionality at
>             all.
>
>             Would it be an option to introduce a "test version" of a
>             global undo/redo to get some feedback from
>             the crowed which way would be preferred?
>
>         For me, the problem is not to have a global or per screen
>         undo/redo list, but what an user is
>         expecting when undoing/redoing a change.
>
>         We *always* expect to undo the last change.
>         Any undo/redo system has this behavior.
>
>         Now consider an editor (the schematic editor with 3 sheets for
>         instance, but this is also the case
>         of text editors with 3 files opened and currently edited).
>
>         1 - in sheet1 you call a tool (component table editor, automatic
>         annotation) which modify all sheets.
>
>         2 - after  that you enter sheet2 and make new changes then
>         sheet3 and also make new changes.
>
>         3 - back to sheet1 and try to undelete the latest change in this
>         sheet: this is the global change
>         (i.e. annotation). This is possible in sheet1.
>         But how can you undo this annotation in others sheets: this is
>         not the latest change and cannot be
>         undone safely (you can have deleted/replaced/edited a symbol in
>         other sheets, or deleted a sheet):
>         what is the actual meaning of "undo the annotation" in other
>         sheets).
>
>         And ultimately:
>         What a undo (and therefore redo) command must undo:
>         1 - the latest change in the full schematic (global undo/redo)
>           or
>         2 - the latest change in the currently edited (active) sheet
>         (local undo/redo)
>
>         This is a choice, and the answer is for me not trivial.
>
>         It could be worth to know what is the option for global/local
>         changes in a schematic hierarchy in
>         other schematic editors.
>
>         Multi-file text editors can undo the latest change only in the
>         active file, not in all opened files.
>
>
>
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> --
> Regards
> David G
>
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