mimblewimble team mailing list archive

[Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Adding my thoughts on this:

*### Naming*

- Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with
  MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this
  will obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for
  Bitcoin to implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's
  an honest question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is
  to just have a good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of
  a Bitcoin-like blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-
  based transactions"
- Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but
  it's grown on me and is short/sweet.
- Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there,
  nobody really refers to the units of currency in everyday
  conversations, or there often isn't much difference between the name
  and unit of currency (Bitcoin = Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I
  ultimately think the best option here is to simply call the coin
  largest denomination a "grin", as people will naturally gravitate
  towards that. For example "how many grin are you holding?" or "I was
  able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest denomination
  ala a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything tacky
  ("ingot" sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some
  have mentioned. My recommendation would be something really simple
  like "bits' or "microgrin" etc. Something boring/plain.
*### Messaging*

I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome
(benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted*
*
*#### What makes Grin awesome**
*

- A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales 
- Maintains your privacy and security by default
- Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining

(I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would
be great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?)
*#### Why you should trust the Grin project*

- No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks
- Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to
- Diverse community of contributing developers with no single
  controlling enttity
*### Other misc. thoughts*

- Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
  small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to
  begin with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a
  non-profit entity might be a good idea- The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience
  in this field or should we consult someone who does?)- If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start
  talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the
  user experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools
  right now, Grin needs to nail that
Hope that helps :)

Cheers,
*Jackson.*


On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 05:27 PM, Cryptagoras wrote:
> # Naming
> 
> I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the transaction-
> type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could see it
> being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW probably)
> and the implementation.> 
> As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits
> structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find
> no need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing
> structures with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin,
> I would propose the following:> 
>                        1 ingot  (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination)> 1 tingot   =       1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots)
> 1 mingot   =   1.000.000 ingots (1-99  million ingots)
> 1 grin     = 100.000.000 ingots
> 
> I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in
> practice. So instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of
> `green` :P and has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have
> short easy word.> 
> (Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have
> [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it
> would also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P)> 
> Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication
> where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the
> "SI" ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the
> current way of people using numbers more naturally.> 
> # Messaging
> 
> As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only
> thing I would add is an answer to a very common question I hear
> (mainly from hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans
> of getting integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or
> even a native integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer
> to go along with the rest if there's a decision.> 
> 
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM
>> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
>> From: apoelstra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
>> > I"ll bite!
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Naming
>> > ======
>> > 
>> > 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type
>> >    category,>> > instead of the blockchain type category.
>> > 
>> > Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like
>> > so much>> > about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol"
>> > blockchain in>> > terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.
>> > 
>> > So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with
>> > mimblewimble>> > transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And,
>> > obviously,>> > turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t
>> > require a>> > different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of
>> > stake.)>> >
>> 
>> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how
>> the chain>> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the
>> lines of>> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW
>> is totally>> agnostic to that stuff".
>> 
>> > 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter
>> >    connection? I>> > always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another
>> > really>> > apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s
>> > Adventures in>> > Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the
>> > beast has>> > disappeared.
>> > 
>> 
>> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding
>> bank. I like>> the Chesire Cat connection :P.
>> 
>> > 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The
>> >    galleon would>> > be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere
>> > in the>> > middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out,
>> > but it>> > might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price
>> > increases to>> > the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too
>> > small.>> > 
>> > I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three
>> > might be>> > the sweet spot.
>> > 
>> 
>> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her
>> lawyers. She"s>> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary
>> system might>> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my
>> knowledge she has>> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble.
>> 
>> > 
>> > Messaging
>> > =========
>> > 
>> > I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value
>> > proposition,>> > it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people
>> > understand>> > the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and
>> > avoids>> > the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has
>> > illicit uses.>> > Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding
>> > confidentiality">> > section on their home page[2].
>> > 
>> > Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good,
>> > since they>> > have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit
>> > activities.>> > However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive
>> > connotations>> > that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an
>> > ongoing>> > but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on
>> > point here.>> > 
>> > [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency
>> > [1] https://etherconverter.online
>> > [2] https://z.cash
>> > 
>> 
>> We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a
>> million ways>> to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy
>> *cheap* and>> *accessible*.
>> 
>> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an
>> immediate and>> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for
>> maintaining>> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who
>> are being>> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are
>> indirect and>> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just
>> trying to pay>> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and
>> manipulating>> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without
>> anybody>> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
>> 
>> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their
>> privacy when>> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or
>> unavailable. Criminals>> don"t give a shit.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Andrew Poelstra
>> Mathematics Department, Blockstream
>> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
>> Web:   https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
>> 
>> "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese
>> who can never find their peace,
>> whether north or south or west or east"
>> --Joanna Newsom
>> 
>> -- 
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