mimblewimble team mailing list archive

[Cryptagoras <cryptagoras@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

# Naming

I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the transaction-type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could see it being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW probably) and the implementation.

As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find no need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing structures with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin, I would propose the following:

                       1 ingot  (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination)
1 tingot   =       1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots)
1 mingot   =   1.000.000 ingots (1-99  million ingots)
1 grin     = 100.000.000 ingots

I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in practice. So instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of `green` :P and has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have short easy word.

(Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it would also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P)

Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the "SI" ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the current way of people using numbers more naturally.

# Messaging

As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only thing I would add is an answer to a very common question I hear (mainly from hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans of getting integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or even a native integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer to go along with the rest if there's a decision.

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM
> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
> From: apoelstra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
>> I"ll bite!
>>
>>
>> Naming
>> ======
>>
>> 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
>> instead of the blockchain type category.
>>
>> Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so much
>> about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" blockchain in
>> terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.
>>
>> So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble
>> transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously,
>> turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a
>> different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of stake.)
>>
>
> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the chain
> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines of
> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is totally
> agnostic to that stuff".
>
>> 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter connection? I
>> always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another really
>> apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures in
>> Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast has
>> disappeared.
>>
>
> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I like
> the Chesire Cat connection :P.
>
>> 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon would
>> be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in the
>> middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it
>> might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases to
>> the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small.
>>
>> I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three might be
>> the sweet spot.
>>
>
> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers. She"s
> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system might
> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge she has
> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble.
>
>>
>> Messaging
>> =========
>>
>> I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition,
>> it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people understand
>> the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and avoids
>> the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit uses.
>> Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding confidentiality"
>> section on their home page[2].
>>
>> Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since they
>> have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities.
>> However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations
>> that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an ongoing
>> but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point here.
>>
>> [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency
>> [1] https://etherconverter.online
>> [2] https://z.cash
>>
>
> We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a million ways
> to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy *cheap* and
> *accessible*.
>
> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an immediate and
> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for maintaining
> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are being
> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect and
> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to pay
> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and manipulating
> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without anybody
> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
>
> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their privacy when
> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or unavailable. Criminals
> don"t give a shit.
>
> --
> Andrew Poelstra
> Mathematics Department, Blockstream
> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
> Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
>
> "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese
> who can never find their peace,
> whether north or south or west or east"
> --Joanna Newsom
>
> --
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