mimblewimble team mailing list archive

[Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks for this list! I like quite a lot of them ^_^

I think my favorites are Nemo, Daymark, Mani, Grall, Nasik, and Petrichorum
(added the um). Mu would be great for the smallest unit.

This is like, bikeshedding the the nth degree, but it's fun.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:46 AM 0xb100d <0xb1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Okay so I'm providing an unordered list of some ideas. These are
> essentially me just cruising wikipedia with some ideas about where to peek,
> mixed with stuff l already had in mind.
>
> I do not mean to bikeshed, far from it.  I think the names of these things
> is somewhat trivial. Proof being mimblewimble name itself. But I think that
> if we have a massive list some will clearly pop out to more than one of us
> as something truly special. I am big on myths, and I think that something
> as myth based as money deserves novel and interesting branding. I've
> definitely written more than enough here, but again, I am only doing so
> because I think the larger the selection the more likely we all are to
> quickly pick something that feels special. I did not open many books (just
> my sanskrit dictionary) and could have done a lot more. I am extremely
> enthusiastic and happy to contribute something of my wheelhouse, and I am
> putting myself out there as a UX/UI copy person. If we test the waters with
> some from this list it will be insanely easy to brand the rest of the
> components like wallets in the same vein.
>
> I think that the technology speaks for itself if you read the
> whitepaper(s), which is why I am not as worried about the premise copy. I
> think what Ignotus has written nails it pretty well. I will think about it
> as well, but couldn't help but channel my enthusiasm specifically to names
> as wordplay and such really gets me going. I hope this list will at least
> inspire something. Again forgive its monstrosity. Let me know what you
> think.
>
> p.s. I really like GRIN... but some of the following had me thinking about
> cool chain names... also I think we should stick to metric units but also
> have pet names for subunits. I very much dislike bitcoin and ethereum
> subunits, but I would appreciate them more if they were nicknames and not
> the default signifiers. I think the mystique and playfulness of MIMWIM
> warrants lots of weirdness and we can take advantage of that as much as we
> want in the nomenclature, but I think we all agree so far that standardized
> subunits are a nobrainer. There are a lot of famous wizards/alchemists who
> could be subunits for example though.
>
> Here we go
>
> Greenwich - Standard time. Call it  GREENs like MONEY. Has something of a
> harry potter vibe since it's british. Sounds like GRIN too. BBC radio
> stations broadcast *PIPS to mark the precise start of each hour.
>
> EPHEMERIS - Used to tell astrological time. EPH for short.
>
> EXONUMIA - numiastic items (such as tokens medals or scrip) other than
> coins or paper money. Call it EXO British NUMIASMATICA) very cool.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonumia
>      OR
>      -NUMMUS - latin for coin. NU money. Love this one.
>      -NEMO "i dispense, divide, assign, keep hold) would be good name for
> a wallet
>      -CARAT - like carrot on a string
>      -Planchett - blank metal  before striking also called FLAN. Cool
> because they are unmarked, yet why would the raw metal not have a similar
> value as the one that has all the writing etc on it?
>      -SHILLING - LOL for shills.
>      -Piedfort - double thick coin.
>      -Tombac- type of brass used in canadian 5 cent coins 1942-43
>      -Escudo (portuguese for shield, very in line with privacy) coin used
> in portuguese colonies. no longer used (I don't think).
>      -Manilla (african currency) or Torc (from latin torque to twist) they
> are like unclosed metal rings. pretty cool.
> -
>
> GNOMON - The part of a sundial that casts the shadow. There was a  funny
> novel in 1985 called  Masters of Atlantis about a fictional secret society
> called Gnomonism (which was very mystical and magical).
>
> *NOCTURN - Like Nocturn Alley. "Night  office". In line with the idea of
> obfuscation. Device called a Nocturnal related to an astrolabe and sundial,
> it is a simple analog computer.
>
> PLUMB - Like a plumb line used to measure depth. I think a PLU coin
> already exits.
>
> WAND- Sounds surprisingly like a currency. Also ROD
>
> Alidade  - a device that allows  one to sight a distant object and use the
> line of sight to perform a task. Arabic for "the ruler" used to measure.
>
> Pelorus - a "dumb compass". latin is in line with harry potter.
>
> Windrose - a way of drawing ship courses on a map. Sounds fun. Looks like
> a network on a map of routes. Alternatively called a RHUMBline. RHUMB is
> kind of HP.
>
> Sandglass - magic sounding name for an hourglass. Money becomes sand.
>
> GOULD - Rupert Gould contributed to horology and Cryptozoology (like the
> loch ness) and was british. Obvious Gold homophone thing going on.
>
> DAYMARK - a highly visible object used as navigation aid. Mark has some
> currency connotation.
>
> KALA - Sanskrit word for time. Two distinct words actually, one means
> black, or dark color, and the other menas a fixed point in time. Also 144
> seconds.
>
> HORAE - Godess of time, broken into triads. THALLO AUXO and CARPO. CARPE
> could be a funny name. Most of the greek hours would be interesting names
> like SPONDE (libations poured after lunch... looks like spend a little)
>
> DRAM - like a shot of whiskey. This one is particularly light and fun to
> me, and is also an antiquated unit of measure.
>
> MERLIN - I would love to keep all my cash in merlins.
>
> QI - Taoist mystical energy.
>
> PRANA - Sanskrit mystical energy. Probably a little too yoga themed though.
>
> FLUDD- After occult philosopher and astrologer Robert Fludd. Studied
> hermeticism, secret teachings. Hermeneutics / hermetics very in line with a
> privacy technology.
>
> CROWLEY - After british occultist aleister crowley. Or even an ALEISTER
> which sounds super harry potter but isnt really. Probably too heavy.
>
> Lamen - magical pendant worn around the neck... indicates grade of
> magician, the ANON (cool anonymous connection)
>
> PENTACLE - Symbol for coins used in the tarot and other magical practices.
> Also called "minutum mundum" or "the universe in little" which seems
> appropriate to me since money can represent anything.
> -PATEN - similar
>
> LAPIS - From latin for lapis philosophorum or the philosophers stone.
> Obviously HP related, but also highly appropriate because the philosophers
> stone is a legendary substance that can be used to create anything (as
> money can be used) and especially for turning base things into gold.
>      -ALKAHEST - Paracelsus believed this to be the element from where all
> other elements were made.
>      -CINTAMANI - or CINTA in buddhism is the philosophers stone. "wish
> fulfilling gem"
>      -VITRIOL - sufficiently latin stands for VISITA INTERIORA TERRA
> RECTIFICANDO INVENIES OCCULTUM LAPIDEM or "visit the interior of the earth,
> by rectification thou s halt find the hidden stone"
>      -Rubedo - last stage of Jungian alchemy where consciousness makes
> contact with self, in other words, Jungs Philoseper's stone.
>      -PANACEA - cure for all things.
>       -PAN greek for ALL. HEN greek for ONE.
>      -MANI - Sanskrit for precious jewel. Like philosophers stone. ALso
> like Manna which has esoteric meaning as food.Sounds like money.
>
>      -*CUPEL - or a cup for short (kind of cool) tool used for
> cupellation, or turning metals into other metals (I really like this one)
> philosophers stone connection.
>      -SLAG - leftover glass when you purify an ore
>      -JAM persian word for cup that held the elixir of immortality. "I
> need more jam to buy this art"
> -*GRAAL like the holy grail. Some think this is the philosophers stone.
> -SANG - means blood
> -/SOLVENT - the universal solvent is another word for the philosophers
> stone. can destroy anything. also MIMWIM solves some digital currency
> problems.
> -Chrysopoeia - turn base metals into noble metals.
> -AU - just the shorthand for gold.
> -/ELIXIR - like elixir of life (aka philosophers stone)
>      -AMRITA - in sanskrit. Like SOMA. "I need SOM!"
>      -/CHASMA in Arabic.
>      -Ambrosia in Greek.
>      -Ichor is ethereal fluid that is the blood of gods/immortals.
>          -Dutsi in buddhism.
> -*Peach of Immortality. "I need a bunch of peaches!" (Chinese).
> -TAT - Sanskrit for THAT.
> -Other words for philosophers stone
>      -Aer
>      -Bufo
>      -Capillus
>      -Crocus ( a plant but kind of rolls off the tongue)
>      -Filius
>      -Folium
>      -Hepar
>      -Lac ( I like this one its short)
>      -stone (which is like quid in the british sense I think) I like stone
>      -Azoth
>
> Sigil or Seal (like a magical combination of pictographs). 20k seals in my
> pocket.
>
> Nasik - mathematical term for a magic hypercube
>
> BESOM - broom. Just BROOM shortened BRO.
>
> Prima (as in prima materia, the first original thing) or even Materia
>
> Obol - ancient greek currency. 3 obol was worth one prostitute for
> example. sometimes word to describe coin placed in the mouth of the dead. I
> really like this one. We all die. Obo for short has a pseudosymmetric
> property. Also EPHODION "something for the road"
>
> Lamella - latin for metal foil sheet
>
>
> Ablaut - "zero grade" changing an internal vowel in a word to change its
> meaning (sing -> sang). Sounds like a type of money to me.
>
> PETRICHOR - the scent of rain on earth
>
> Ouroboros - the snake that eats itself. Reminds me of how information is
> pruned in mimble wimble to make it self referential and smaller. Token
> could be shortened to OUR. OUR money.
>      -ENSO zen  hand drawn circle similar to an ouroboros.
>      -MU void.
>
> TERMA - Tibetan for "hidden treasure" either earthly treasures or mind
> treasures.
> -NAMCHO - tibetan "space treasures"
>
> Artifex - an artificer or alchemist
>
> ISM- As in any word that ends in ism. Organism. Very cool. I need 55 isms
> to buy this book.
>
>
> Pleroma - Gnostic term for primordial consciousnes.
>
> SYMBOL - Just call the amount a symbol. I need 25 symbols to get lunch.
> SYM.
>
> MERC as in mercURY - messenger god. liquid metal (like liquid currency)
>
> RASA - Sanskrit for nectar, mercury and juice.
>
> Corpuscles - alchemical idea where atoms came from. CORP or body for
> short. pretty cool. isaac newton, descartes and others believed in
> corpuscles.
>
> Silphium - plant whose heart shaped seeds may have been source of our
> current heart symbol, was put on Cyrenian silver coins in the 6th centure
> BCE.
>
>
> Kallisti - Written on a golden apple by Eris to create chaos amongst
> beautiful godesses.  Related to discordianism which is a kind of funny
> mordern magical sect.
>      -QUINCE - another middle eastern fruit called a golden apple. I like
> this name for a currency. has our QUI in it too.
>      -Pomo d'oro or just POMODORO is tomato in italian but means golden
> apple.
>      -HESPER for Hesperidium which is an allusion to golden apples.
>
> PAIN - means bread
>
>
> Spagyr or spagyric - take apart and put back together
>
> COR - heart
>
> Spintria - roman brothel tokens
>
> Gettone - Token in italian. Looks like get one.
>
>
> Jeton - 13-17th century europena token.
>
> Calculi - roman value stones
>
> Wampum - Native American shell currency. Mimblewimble's Wampum
>
> Freeba as in Free Banking
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking#History_of_free_banking
>      -Meulen after Henry Meulen who wrote about individual right to bank
> and. MEU for short.
>      -Hayek who wrote The Denationalization of Money
>
> FRAM - Frvilous Amuesements
>
> Mabignogi - MAB for short. Earliest british literature. Means Juvenile
> Amusements. aka young adult literature
>
> CORNUCOPIA - mystical vessels of never ending contents. COR for short,
> which is latin for heart.
>      -SAMPO like cornucopia
>      -GROTTI - magical grindstone
>
> MONAD
>
> JNA- Sanskrit for knowledge
> Vidya - Sanskrit for correct knowledge
> RATNA - sanskrit for gemstone. RAT for short, which is harry pottery. OWL
> could be a good currency name.
>
> Pendre - etymology of pendant. AMUlet would be cool too. or TALIS as in
> Talisman.
>
> Altar - without the magical connotation sounds like a sci-fi currency. Has
> bonus of being shortened as ALT. Fully embrace the ALT coin. Love it.
>
> ----
> just brainstorming
> Mining Software
>
> MAKARA - guardian fish deity in hindu mythology
> MERCURY - used in alchemy and is a messenger
> ALCHEMY - process of refining low level things into higher level order and
> wisdom/value.
> TRANSMUTE
> ABULAFIA - mystic and fictional computer
> BLAZON - coat of arms/shield
> ABACUS
>
> --
> Wallet software
>
> HERMETICA/HERMETICUM - perfectly sealed and secret.
> MANSAROVAR - "mind lake" Holy lake at foot of Tibetan mountain.
> RAS - Indian ford for juice.
> CAULDRON
>
> There are also quite a few references JK Rowling makes that are of actual
> mythical and historical reference, and so would not be copyrighted. I will
> look into it. BASILISKS and such are not her invention.
>
> This is really the tip of the iceberg. Once I get some feedback theming
> other components of the framework will be even better. Constraint is good
> creativity fuel.
>
> have a magical day
> 0x-art
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 3:25 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 10:25 PM
> From: igno.peverell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: 0xb100d <0xb1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Sorry for jumping the gun too fast! I've added Quipu and Talent (Fing
> reminds me too much of an insult), hopefully it's not too late. And don't
> let that stop you, I'm fairly sure we'll need to name quite a few other
> things (wallet, mining software, etc).
>
> - Igno
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 8:41 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 8:41 PM
> From: 0xb1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> It looks like I'm a bit late as the poll seems to already be up. I am a
> linguistics guy and really wanted to brainstorm some good naming ideas
> before submitting some. Seeing as how quickly things are moving I hope I
> can submit a couple of ideas that came to me in the shower last night and
> maybe there will be a chance to contribute further later.
>
> 1. Grin should be its own thing, not Bitcoin 2.0. As far as worrying about
> how to get in... time time to learn to mine my friend. Everyone is staff on
> this ship, no passengers.
> 2. Quid is confusing, like stated above, it's like calling it Bucks.
> 3. I somewhat liked ingots.
> 4. Quipu is the mayan knot notation. It looks a little like quid. The
> mayan quipus were long term exact value notation, and I like the idea of
> value being exchanged as knots in a chain.
> 5. This one came to me maybe I'm an idiot. What if we call the tokens
> FING. Like finger, as in a finger pointing to the moon. The fing(er) is not
> the value it is just symbolic of what is valuable. Added bonus, say out
> loud "I need you to give me some fing" or "I am owed many fings! 25 fings!"
> it sounds like a thick british accent asking for "things" and I think that
> is hilarious.
> 6. A "talent" is an ancient unit of mass (
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_(weight)) and a talent of gold
> was gold that weighed as much as one person. I think that is awesome.
> 7. Time related units could  be interesting (delving more now) as they say
> time is money. It would be cool if our money was named after time.
>
> I agree with earlier statements that we do not need to brand too heavilly
> to  HP stuff, since it can get stale and incur  copyright violations. But I
> do think that the fun, magical, youthful vibe should carry over. I think
> that MW is a truly fantastic way to store and exchange of value, and I hope
> to use it heavily in the future. It would be great if the currency I used
> reminded me to be light and fun and magical.
>
> I don't know what the time frame is by I hope if there is some time you
> will let me do some more research and  come up with some more magical
> options. My background is linguistics, and I've also studied academically
> mysticism and occultism, so it would be a great honor to be able to apply
> some of that to the project (especially since my engineering background is
> lacking). Going to spend the day on it.
>
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 1:25 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 8:25 PM
> From: leishman3@xxxxxxxxx
> To: Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Well said Jackson. I'm looking forward to a fresh start and pleasant
> alternative to the ICO, get rich, hedge fund mania that's happening.
>
> I hope we can focus on building a beautiful, open source project that
> helps solve a problem in the world.
>
> I also agree with the idea of outlining principles for the future of the
> technology. Hopefully we can learn from Bitcoin and solidify these
> principles early on to lower the chance of political fractures in the
> future.
>
>
> -Alex
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:40, Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hey Rhett,
>
> I have to strongly disagree with the "Bitcoin 2.0" approach - it seems
> like that approach is in fashion right now and the politics involved are
> just a distraction I don't think a fledgling project like Grin needs.
>
> Additionally, I'd argue that the current Bitcoin token distribution is not
> something anyone would want to "snapshot" or "copy" for their new chain.
> You have the large number of frozen Satoshi coins, multitudes of
> hacked/stolen coins that may still be in the hands of bad actors, and a
> large centralization of coins amongst big miners. Snapshotting the existing
> chain only acts to "self-serve" the existing Bitcoiner space and I don't
> see how that's going to improve accessibility or adoption of the Grin
> network in any positive way (most Bitcoiners would probably dump it for a
> profit as they already have Bitcoin Cash)
>
> To stick to the values that Andrew and others have outlined, I think it's
> best for Grin to remain its own network/chain and strive to provide a
> scalable technology stack that avoids some of the pitfalls other currencies
> such as Bitcoins have faced by building on top of those learnings.
>
> Lastly (and maybe this is the socialist in me talking), I prefer not to
> think of involvement in Grin as "investment" for personal gain... I really
> think this whole industry needs to focus more on building solid open-source
> technology as the starting point, if it ever wants to actually
> revolutionize the digital currency space. I really hope through smart
> messaging/community building that Grin can be positioned as something more
> than just a Bitcoin 2.0 get rich quick scheme.
>
> Cheers,
> *Jackson.*
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017, at 09:57 AM, Rhett Creighton wrote:
>
> Hi MimbleWimblers,
>
> I'd like to suggest a different approach.  Rather than launch with zero
> supply, MimbleWimble should start as a chain split of Bitcoin.  I
> understand that the address scheme is different, but there are several ways
> to solve this.  One way is to store all Bitcoin addresses with a non-zero
> balance in a genesis block and treat these addresses similar to the way
> other currencies have used "pre-sale" wallets.
>
> Optionally, if we didn't want to worry about maintaining this prewallet
> state over a long time, there could be a short time window where people
> must sign a message to claim their MimbleWimble coins.  After bootstrapping
> the initial supply, the blockchain could start running as a pure
> MimbleWimble implementation and nodes could even choose to prune the
> initial bitcoin bootstrapping blocks.
>
> Then as far as branding and messaging goes, we could take a page out of
> Bitcoin Cash's book.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind calling this chain
> Bitcoin2.0 or something like that.
>
> People of course would still be free to use legacy Bitcoin.  Bitcoin2.0
> might only start with 10% of the market cap of Bitcoin Legacy.
>
> I can understand the urge to create a "pure" chain implementation, but I
> think that we have moved past the days where that's necessary for a project
> like this, and honestly, it could set back the potential of MimbleWimble by
> several years.
>
> As an investor, I am very excited about the technology in MimbleWimble.
> However, if it starts with zero supply then I'm in a really tough spot of
> trying to figure out where to buy in.  After 6 months, the coin still has a
> 200% yearly inflation rate.  After 1 year, it's at 100% yearly inflation.
> Will demand outpace that?  Maybe, but it's a much tougher spot to be in
> than if supply was bootstrapped off of the Bitcoin blockchain.
>
> Additionally, I don't think it's a stretch to think of MimbleWimble as
> Bitcoin 2.0 technology.  It has many of the same goals as the original
> Bitcoin with advancements that weren't available at the time and a much
> nicer codebase.
>
> -Rhett
>
> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Ignotus Peverell <
> igno.peverell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> We're getting closer and closer to a testnet [1] and it may be a good idea
> to start thinking of outward communication. We want to have enough time to
> prepare so when the time comes, we don't get confused with the thousands of
> other projects in this noisy space, and have a chance to voice our
> strengths and differences. Messaging can also take time to refine. Now, as
> I know words like "narratives" (yeastplume used it first, not me :P) can
> make some developers' eyes glaze over, I'll start with something more fun
> and friendly: naming [2].
>
> We need names for a few things:
>
>    1. Our blockchain type. I'm happy to keep using MimbleWimble here. I
>    know that technically, the Grin blockchain will have quite a bit more than
>    just what's in the Jedusor white paper, but I think at a high level it's a
>    good approximation. Some people are also already familiar with it and heard
>    the name.
>    2. Our implementation. I'm not unhappy with grin but I'm not opposed
>    to renaming if too many folks are strongly against it.
>    3. Our coin. We have nothing so far here so we need to find a name. My
>    first inclination would be to accept propositions for names as replies to
>    this email, and then run a poll online. Sounds good as a process? We likely
>    need another name for smallest denominations too.
>
> To draw a parallel, in the Ethereum world 1) is Ethereum, 2) is Parity or
> geth, 3) is Ether/Wei.
>
>
> Now for the messaging and narratives. In my experience (which is a lot
> more shallow in that domain), we want to outline our strengths and
> differences to formulate a value proposition. From there we can distill
> messages of various lengths, adapted to different support (one-liner title,
> one paragraph article intro, full website, etc). And ideally, we'd have
> opportunities to try these messages in various environments to see how they
> work and incrementally improve them.
>
> So I'll start with a mixed bag of strengths and differences in no
> particular order and maybe we can figure out a way to go from there. If
> some people have more experience in how to go about this and a good process
> to get there, by all means please chime in.
>
>    - Strong anonymity provided by obfuscating amounts, sources and
>    destinations and removing data over time.
>    - Great scalability as most blockchain data gets removed, without
>    compromising security (the magic part).
>    - A diverse community of developers and cryptographers (no control
>    from a single entity).
>    - A brand new, clean (relatively) and modern blockchain implementation
>    with few fundamental primitives.
>    - A Harry Potter theme that, while quirky, has personality (obviously,
>    I may be biased).
>    - No ICO, pre-mine or funny business. We may still need to find a way
>    to get funding but hopefully it'll be reasonable and in line with other
>    funded open source projects/foundations.
>    - The person who started the project has a cool name and uses
>    parentheses a little too much (it's a side effect of the cloak).
>
> For others involved in this project, I'd love to hear what it means to you
> as well.
>
> - Igno
>
> [1] I know it's taking some time but I decided to include the UTXO sum
> tree in that milestone, which created a bit more work than I expected.
> [2] Throwing a Wikipedia article your way:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name#In_cryptography
>
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