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Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 15:57, skrev Evan Huus:
I apologize, I'm sure that wasn't anybody's intention.
Apology accepted. I didn't really mean it very seriously :)
I agree that as far as Oneiric is concerned, the Interface Freeze is
past and the hidden buttons are more or less the way it's going to be.
But that doesn't mean that we can't be looking ahead to 12.04. As I
mentioned in my previous post, I'm personally not sure what the best
route forward is on this issue, but there's no harm in having an
intelligent debate on the topic.
Agreed. But an intelligent debate on this subject would
require empirical data. We'll have this cycle to test it in
the real world, and if it should cause any significant issues,
then it will be possible to revert in the P-cycle. I really doubt
that it would cause any problems at all.
Nobody in this thread has proposed that the best path forward is
simply to mimic Windows (or Mac OS) just because. However, keeping in
mind people's past experiences is an important part of designing a
user interface. People make decisions based on past experiences, and
those decisions influence how they interact with the interface. I
believe that not taking this into account is a mistake.
With the risk of sounding like an elitist, normal users do as they're
told. That is how it should be. They do not spend large amounts of
time thinking about where a button is best placed, like we do.
We should never make a change for the simple reason that we
want to be different. That would be stupid. But it would be
equally stupid to copy old mistakes in order to stay similar. In
Windows, there is no reason not to show the buttons since the
window frame is visible in any case. The situation is different in
Ubuntu. We have something to gain from hiding them. Another
thing is that many users are only using the browser. This is what
makes Google Chrome OS an attractive alternative to some users.
These kinds of users will never close the browser window and so
presenting them with an option to do so, makes no sense. With
Ubuntu, you can get the same experience, but with a browser of
your own choice. It's simply a matter of running the browser
at login. But Ubuntu will provide more features that are available
in the top left, which are useful even to those users.
If anything, people should not be given the impression that they can
learn how to use a computer by exploration. It is an exceptionally bad
idea.
Why is that a bad idea?
Because it is a misconception. Lots of users believe that Windows
is user friendly for the simple reason that they've been using it for
many years. I had a talk with a user in a Norwegian IRC channel
the other day, and it became apparent to me that he didn't
understand partitioning, filesystems, mount points, etc. I had
completely forgotten that partitioning is a complicated thing, simply
because to me it's obvious after so many years.
Most people who use a computer, uses a computer for long periods
of time and frequently. You can spend a year exploring the system
without discovering all the features. If you are going to spend
hundreds of hours using a tool, you really should spend an hour
learning how to use it properly. I'm not saying that you should have
to read a thick bible, but a quick intro of a few pages should be
available in all new users homes and reading it should be encouraged.
We can't make people read the manual, and not everybody has a friend
with past experience they can ask when they're stuck. How else are all
those people going to learn the interface?
Sure we can. Using a car is much easier than using a computer,
but nobody is proposing that people should just explore how it
works. And people are willing to spend time learning how to use
it properly because it is important to them. The computer is a very
important part of most users lives and they should learn how to use
it properly. I think it's a shame, for instance, that most users of
Ubuntu doesn't know anything about using SSH and GPG keys. In
the modern day, this is something all users should know, even if
they aren't used to it from Windows. But you cannot learn this
by exploring. You have to read something.
I think what you're saying here is that "Easy to learn != Easy to
use", which I.do agree with. I just think that these changes do, in
fact make the interface harder to learn, because they make it harder
to explore. At this point we're back to the question of whether
exploration is a valid method of learning an interface.
No, I'm saying that if something is easy to learn, it is also easy
to use. But you do need to learn. If we were to design Ubuntu in
a way that doesn't require people to learn, then it would have to
be a very primitive product.
We do want to avoid information overload, but window manipulation is a
relatively common action. I think we want to make common actions
obvious, and hide away less common actions to avoid clutter. This is
why I don't have a problem with hiding the menus: they typically
contain less common actions.
I completely disagree. Quite simply because the actions are so
very common, it's not necessary to present them with a constant
reminder for thousands of hours. They should spend a couple of
minutes to learn it once and then we should stop bothering them.
You know, there really isn't anything obvious about X being the
label to exit. It's a convention that people have learned and gotten
used to, that's all. They'll get used to the buttons not being
displayed constantly just as easily. I remember when Ubuntu
moved the buttons from right to left, and people were threatening
to move back to Windows. It is not rational and it is not real.
Most people use computers often. They should learn how to use it by
reading something, not by exploration.
Most people use toasters often. How many people do you know who have
read the manual for their toaster?
Are you really comparing the internet and everything you can do
with a computer with a toaster? That's something that separates
you and me. I spend more than 8-10 hours a day on my computer.
That's a lot. But most users do spend hours on their computers.
Let's say you use only two hours a day on a computer and you
have it for three years. I think that's an extremely conservative
estimate, but it still means more than two thousand hours spent
using then product. Why would you not want to spend one single
hour learning how to use it properly in order to maximize both
efficiency and comfort? I think in real life, an average user would
probably use the product for five thousand hours. I think that
makes it a tool you really want to spend a little time learning
how to use.
Again, we can't force people to read the manual, and in fact most
people aren't going to even bother reading the manual. They're going
to sit down at the interface, and expect to be able to explore or
intuit their way to their goal. Ignoring these people as potential
users seems like a bad idea to me.
Well, that's a pity. We certainly should never try to strengthen
that misconception. I want Ubuntu to empower people and
place them in control, not to dumb them down. We should
encourage people to see knowledge and understanding, not
to avoid it.
Manuals and tutorials are certainly more efficient means of teaching
the user, but I disagree that exploration is entirely useless. I don't
have any data to back up that assertion unfortunately.
Sure you do. For many years, it's been not only possible, but
easy to encrypt personal files in Ubuntu. But you do need to
understand the concepts, even if it is theoretically possible to
learn by trial and error. Still, most people don't know how to do
it. They do, however, feel uncertain when it comes to privacy.
So they have a problem, but do not fix it because they do not
know that the solution is readily available. They do want to
learn, but they don't. The number one reason is the
misconception that computers are intuitive and that they can
learn by exploration.
This is turning into a very interesting discussion of user-interface
design principals. I hope that by the time the 12.04 cycle starts up
we have reached some sort of consensus (even if the consensus is that
we need to do more usability studies before we make a decision).
Sure. And I obviously support usability studies. But I do not
support the notion that it should be followed blindly. It is
important to remember that the vast majority of computer
users today have a large backpack of misconceptions and
horrible habits. If we should just do what people expect, then
there would be no reason to spend time on improving anything.
Which has been the reason why free desktops has not improved
for a decade.
Jo-Erlend Schinstad