openerp-community team mailing list archive

[Raphael Valyi <rvalyi@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hello Marcello,

On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Marcelo Bello <marcelo.bello@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> Raphael, I sent that email to add a perspective of one end-user, I think
> this kind of discussion is improved if some end-users can jump in and tell
> how they see the situation.
>

Sure. Now end users better work with specialized integrators to get
anything working and this is mostly the public not afraid to be here.

>
>     I certainly do not have the whole picture, I have never touched a
> single line of code in OERP and I do not know all the news. I spoke what is
> my perception and you know, marketers like to say that perception is
> reality.
>
>     I am not pretending I am a big client or that I have potential to
> become one. Just really described the picture I formed in my mind (wrong or
> not) about OERP and its ecosystem, maybe that can be enlightening to
> someone.
>
>     And I did think that by initially giving the contract to an OpenERP
> partner (active at the time) I was indeed contributing back to the
> community, I think you can relate to why someone would reason in that way,
> can't you?
>
>     Raphael, you always assume people do not hire Akretion in Brazil
> because they want the cheapest service available. You say a lot about how
> companies in Brazil do not have criteria, decision makers do not value
> expertise, etc... Have you ever stopped to think that maybe they actually
> can make sound decisions but it is very difficult to hire someone that
> writes (and maybe behaves?) like you do? I know you may be offended by this
> I just hope you will be able to hear it and accept it as a feedback,
> because the way you express yourself on this forum, on the forum of the
> Brazilian localization (and even on that long discussion about the contact
> model screw-up) really makes a poor image of you, at least to my eyes. I am
> sure you have all the hard skills, but the soft skills are just as
> important when you want to make a sale and to manage a project. (I know you
> are good and you have a lot to contribute with your opinions, you could
> just choose a softer language and show more respect to other people)
>

I have to say is that you believed you had the choice. And the time has
shown you that it wasn't the case.
Prostitution of the market isn't just about the price. Here companies have
that  obligation to quickly respond their email to send them a quote (it's
lot of work on our side), put a cravat and please them with kind words to
please the guys with the money kind enough to talk to them.

That would be perfectly reasonable if more integrators would offer the
service vs the demand for it. That would be the case if making OpenERP was
as easy as the marketing is telling you.
But you know what demand is 10x higher than the valid offer at the bare
minimum. If we made positive marketing like OpenERP SA does, it would be
100x the off or evener more with nearly no change in the offer, at least
not in the same proportion today, that mean it would be an irresponsible
attitude because they would be 100x more stories like your, that has the
potential to even burn the product image totally.

We already made a tremendous investment on our side to make this market
exist.
People have to accept our conditions without making us loose time with
commercial ceremonies at the moment because we have more much more valuable
things to do that spend time convincing them to to pay the value it costs.
In fact we have to filter the projects that will work and focus on them.
That is not you the customer choosing, that is us choosing the customer.
And if they don't spot the situation by themselves, chances are they aren't
good enough for the project to even succeed. And failures is what we don't
need.
You believed you could do different you were wrong and I cannot do anything
about it.


>     For the record, the proposal I got from Proge back in February 2013
> was about 50% higher than what Akretion wanted to charge, so I actually
> chose the more expensive option. Your behavior on the mailing lists was a
> big factor in deciding in favor of Proge, a decision I regret for sure.
>

So you lost because of your market analysis based on superficial criteria.
Meanwhile do you believe we have lost anything?
We didn't because we took the next guy on the list and for us be it
Marcello or another guy it was the same ad we were working at full capacity
on projects that would be success.

So who is wrong?
Bad market analysis my friend.

These guys could afford have a nice image, because everything penny they
don't invest on the R&D, they put it on the marketing.
Have them been any successful with that policy? Nope because R&D was in
fact much more important pas the superficial image they could keep for a
few months.


> The second time I went shopping, Akretion did not even reply to my email.
>

There we are.

So in fact, may be one day you will understand that:
we and a few folks here DO HAVE A STRATEGY. that means that the local
optimum may be isn't what we are looking for. We probably made a few
projects at half the price these guys offered you.
BUT that was for people right place right time. And only in that specific
situation.

Instead, in common situation, we are overworking 70 hours a week and taking
an other project would simply be as expensive as implementing human cloning
immediately.
Because this is so much innovation there is no elasticity, you cannot
reason in term of traditional offer and demand elasticity.
Renato or me could easily earn 4x what we make with OpenERP by taking
another job or just the double by working from Brazil for the US or
European market. Money had to be enough but it was never a key in that
seeding phase of the business.

That was a caricature with the cost human cloning. But seriously, the cost
of putting more skilled resources into the game has a very high cost. I
still think you have no idea what kind of guys is required to make it work.
These guys can earn 4x the money by working for Petroleum or Banking
industries if not more. The last trainee we had to abandon the trainee
program because we wouldn't be good enough after one year of training
still, could make 2x the income as a cab driver in Rio with just 40 hours a
week. Not my fault if Brazil doesn't value IT not even close.

And as you spotted, rebel startup attitude isn't exactly a characteristic
of that high social class that was lucky enough (with non exiled parents
during dictatorship) to frequent an elite university in Brazil. They just
fucking go where it seems to pay more, end of the story.
So doubling the price and loosing hours to convince you or another that
it's worth the money, wouldn't be a valid solution.
Instead not loosing time and putting the resources on the technological
innovation to ensure we would double or triple the productivity in the
future was a much more valid solution as long as we could make a living
meanwhile.

An other solution would be Venture Capital investment seeding.
But you have plenty of intermediaries sucking money you will have to pay
back in this system.
This is the way OpenERP went, and now they make a CMS and now you cannot
understand why.
So eventually, as long as you can seed a startup on your own, I would
advise to do so.
And this is not just me telling it:
http://ecorner.stanford.edu/authorMaterialInfo.html?mid=2354


> I guess it is always easier to put the blame on the prostitution of the
> market, the bad decision makers, etc but I can tell you there is a large
> market in Brazil for a serious player but it will have to show a high level
> of professionalism at all levels, even on the public mail lists.
>

You will see, soon we will be making plenty of positive marketing again,
put a cravat and have nice words for people psychological comfort zones.
But we couldn't do that before because we would have lost our investment.


>
>      Sorry for going off-topic.
>

The same.

>
> Best regards,
>


Regards and sorry for people's comfort zone.

-- 
Raphaël Valyi
Founder and consultant
http://twitter.com/rvalyi <http://twitter.com/#!/rvalyi>
+55 21 2516 2954
www.akretion.com