unity-design team mailing list archive

[Jorge Ortega <jorge.ortega111@xxxxxxxxx>]

I think from now own I'm repeating myself but I'll try again.

If I call them virtual desktops is because they are not real, in the sense
that Gimp open and running is real. There is not system overhead there. I
really don't see the extra layer of complexity, quite the opposite. This is
simple: one running app-one dektop/workspace/background. In this respect
changing between workspaces is not any different than changing between
running apps: an icon-click or shortcut away.

To be honest, this wouldn't be very different from saying: every time the
user opens a new app the others get minimize instantly.

The process should be transparent in the sense that you don't have to
connect to the internet, find out the address of some server in USA, send a
request for some information, deal with proxies, etc. every time you launch
the browser to look up something in Google: this is all done for you when
you trigger an action.

To make it short: if people understand that I'm suggesting and extra layer
of complexity, then a)didn't understand my point b)didn't explain myself
well c) My suggestion is plain wrong.



On 14 April 2011 20:45, Christopher Kahn <christopher.kahn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> What I mean by that is, when you click the launcher you expect one thing to
> happen: the program to open. Opening it anywhere else but right in front of
> me-*-on the viewport I'm currently looking at*--is adding unnecessary
> complexity and confusion to what should be a dead simple procedure. Whisking
> the user to another workspace and having him say "hey! why'd all my other
> windows disappear? why do I have to go to another workspace just to get my
> browser back?" is confusing.
>
> So if I open 8 different programs I'd end up with 8 virtual workspaces? And
> then I'd have to go manually consolidating them if I only wanted them on one
> or two? Or take extra steps to get it to open on the current viewport?
> What's the limit to the number of virtual workspaces that can be open? Does
> this affect performance?
>
> I agree that workspaces need more accessible default behaviour but I don't
> think this is it.
>
> --Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Jorge Ortega <jorge.ortega111@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>
>> Christopher,
>>
>> But the new app would open right in front of you...
>>
>> The way I see it is: there wouldn't be any defined number of desktops, and
>> definitely you shouldn't be able to see several empty desktops. The point is
>> that a new desktop is created every time you start a new app.
>>
>> A compromise would be to make it action-dependent: clicking on the icon
>> would open in new desktop and draging and droping the icon would open it in
>> a new dektop (or viceverse). But this is probably far too much of a
>> compromise...
>>
>>
>> On 14 April 2011 20:15, Christopher Kahn <christopher.kahn@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ayatana mailing list.
>>>
>>> This would cause a lot of confusion for users. When you're on a viewport
>>> and you click an icon you expect the program to open right in front of you.
>>> Whisking the user around to different viewports when he opens programs will
>>> cause confusion and frustration... it is not intuitive behaviour. And if I
>>> have 4 workspaces and open 5 programs, where does the 5th program open and
>>> why?
>>>
>>> My suggestion is to add an item to launchers' right-click menus: "Open in
>>> workspace X", when you click it you'd be be moved to that workspace with the
>>> new window open.
>>>
>>> --Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jorge Ortega <jorge.ortega111@xxxxxxxxx
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi jamur,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I don't want the shell to make arbitrary decisions for me
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the decision to open apps on the same workspace is as arbitrary  as the
>>>> decision to give them their own workspace.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I don't have hard data to support this but there it goes anyway:
>>>> most of the times, when people work with one app. they work with (focus on)
>>>> just one app at a time. This is even if they have several open: torrent
>>>> client downloading in the background, the music player playing in the
>>>> background, the browser open and ready for next time you check facebook or
>>>> what not. I know that the occasions when you actually need to interact with
>>>> more than one app at a time are not rare: but I would argue that they are
>>>> the minority.
>>>>
>>>> You are right to say  that just now mainly power users use multiple
>>>> workspaces. But this is mainly down to how badly designed this feature is.
>>>> There is nothing advanced in working in an orderly and and uncluttered way:
>>>> this is how it should be by default, no by hard-won skills.
>>>>
>>>> From a personal (and anecdotal) point of view: over the years every now
>>>> and again I've tried to incorporate the use of multiple workspaces in my
>>>> workflow. I was obviously trying to improve the clutter on the desktop like
>>>> everyone else. It's never worked for me in the current form.
>>>>
>>>> All the other stuff: what to do with multiple instances of an app. how
>>>> to switch between apps, etc is really just a matter of detail, meaning that
>>>> they can be worked out.
>>>>
>>>> On 14 April 2011 18:14, Jamu Kakar <jkakar@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jorge,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Ortega
>>>>> <jorge.ortega111@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> > I find Unity approach to multiple virtual desktops extremely
>>>>> half-hearted:
>>>>> > it just provides the option to used them and an icon which you can't
>>>>> remove
>>>>> > from the bar.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Unity could use virtual desktop in a transparent way:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 1-Don't show icon if only a desktop is being used.
>>>>> > 2-Apps. should open in a new virtual desktop each. (by default)
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to choose how I use workspaces.  I don't want the shell to make
>>>>> arbitrary decisions for me.  My impression is that workspaces are used
>>>>> primarily by power users who know what they want.  Putting a default
>>>>> in place that gets in the way of that sounds like a bad idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> > 3-When more than one app. is open then the icon to switch desktops
>>>>> appears
>>>>> > in the bar (it has to be very prominent)
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a bit like the pattern used to stick an icons in the launcher.
>>>>> You first have to start an application and only then can you make it
>>>>> sticky.  I find this behaviour in the launcher confusing.  When I
>>>>> started using Unity I expected to be able to drag applications from
>>>>> the application dash and stick them in the Launcher.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect having to do something before you know that workspaces exist
>>>>> would be similarly confusing.  Also, for those users that aren't
>>>>> familiar with them, they'd probably be confused as to why two icons
>>>>> appear in the launcher when they start an application instead of one
>>>>> (the desktop switcher and the application icon).
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, how will workspace focus behave?  If I have Firefox running on
>>>>> workspace one and I then start Evolution, will it magically take me to
>>>>> workspace two?  If so, I won't be able to Alt-Tab back to Firefox.  If
>>>>> not, Evolution will appear not to have started.  In the first case,
>>>>> this will force me to either (a) use the mouse to click on the Firefox
>>>>> icon or (b) know about Alt-Shift-Tab (which I think is not well
>>>>> known).  In the second case, I'll have to know that Evolution started
>>>>> somewhere else and figure out where and how to get there.
>>>>>
>>>>> > 4-Exceptions should be made, probably for configuration tools. For
>>>>> instance,
>>>>> > when you open pulseaudio sound preferences this window should appear
>>>>> in the
>>>>> > active dektop. The understanding is you are just checking on
>>>>> something or
>>>>> > carrying out a very transitory task and close the app straight away.
>>>>> A case
>>>>> > could be made for multiple isntances of the file manger as well: most
>>>>> of the
>>>>> > time we are transferring files between windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> This sounds tricky to get right.
>>>>>
>>>>> > 5-The transitions between desktops (apps. in fact) should be very
>>>>> smooth and
>>>>> > not sight-tiring.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> > In short:
>>>>> > current behaviour: apps open in the same space and the user has to
>>>>> put them
>>>>> > in different deskops.
>>>>>
>>>>> I usually move to the workspace I want before opening an application,
>>>>> if I want it to be on a different workspace than the one I'm on.
>>>>>
>>>>> > suggested behaviour: apps open in their own space and the user has to
>>>>> put
>>>>> > put them manually in the same desktops if they want to do it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Which such a behaviour the concept of virtual desktops becomes
>>>>> transparent:
>>>>> > people would use them without actually realizing, you don't decide to
>>>>> use
>>>>> > the feature or not, the feature is at the core of how your computer
>>>>> > works.The way to do this doesn't have to be the traditional zoom
>>>>> out/drag
>>>>> > and drop/zoon in: drag an icon onto other icon to move apps to the
>>>>> same
>>>>> > space/desktop and gain focus on this desktop immediately.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In this context minimizing seems to loose any sense: why do you wan
>>>>> to
>>>>> > minimize an app that is not sharing its space with anything else?
>>>>>
>>>>> I minimize applications that are doing something useful, but that I
>>>>> don't want to deal with.  For example, I often use Movie Player to
>>>>> play a stream of the internet.  I minimize it so that it doesn't show
>>>>> up when I hit Super-w to get a view of all the active windows (and I
>>>>> like this behaviour).
>>>>>
>>>>> Removing the "get out of my way" behaviour that minimizing provides
>>>>> would result in useful functionality being lost.
>>>>>
>>>>> > The above proposal has far reaching consecuences but would go a very
>>>>> long
>>>>> > way towards simplifying how people use their computers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree.  The suggestions above would go a very long way to making
>>>>> my computer harder to use and harder to reason about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> J.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>