dhis2-documenters team mailing list archive

[Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx>]

200$/month for 5 people, that is.

Not saying that price may not be worth paying if it helps productivity.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Did you not have to sign up for the free trial license?
> Our free trial includes all of the features of Oxygen XML Web Author for a
> maximum of 30 days
>
> Seems to be 200 USD per month?
>
> oXygen XML Web Author uses a subscription floating license model with a
> minimum commitment period of 12 months.
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Jason Pickering <
> jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I found what looks like a too-good-to-be-true WebApp version of Oxygen
>> from the Google Play Store, which offers integration with GitHub. It seems
>> to work. Might offer a new editor to replace my beloved deprecated Serna.
>> You can try it out by adding oXygen XML WebApp extension to Chrome. Seems
>> pretty sweet, but not sure if this is just a demo or something which is
>> actually fully functional and free?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> http://docbkx-tools.sourceforge.net/docbkx-samples/manual.html seems
>>> to suggest 5.0 is now supported.
>>>
>>> One of the features i have seen touted in 5.1 which is also part of
>>> DITA (and no doubt Flare) is support for "topics".  I guess the idea
>>> here, to use the elearning jargon, is to be able to make reusabale
>>> learning objects which can be differently combined in scorm modules
>>> and the like.
>>>
>>> I do agree that at the moment the priority really should be more and
>>> improved content.  While we have that content in docbook xxx xml we
>>> know that it is not going to be lost and can be shimmied into whatever
>>> the toolchain of the future might be.  In fact i am regretting getting
>>> involved in this thread at all, but I am glad you got rid of the Serna
>>> free comments :-)  Back to work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8 April 2016 at 04:13, Jason Pickering <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Hi Bob,
>>> >
>>> > Again, I think the fact that docbook has moved on is to us, not so
>>> > important. We are using a very small subset of what docbook offers, and
>>> > there are no real differences between 4.4 and 5.0 for our purposes, at
>>> least
>>> > which I have seen. One issue which we should investigate more is the
>>> > supposed improved indexing in 5.0, which I have not been able to get to
>>> > work.
>>> >
>>> > The major issue with upgrading the dependency from 4.4 to 4.5 of
>>> docbook
>>> > seems to be the lack of a publicly available maven artifact for either
>>> 4.4
>>> > or 5.0. We could of course build it ourselves, or try and find
>>> somewhere
>>> > where its actually available, but since I managed to get this
>>> combination
>>> > working, I never really investigated it further.
>>> >
>>> > So again to emphasize, the reason we are using 4.4 is because of the
>>> tool
>>> > chain (docbkx) and getting that to work with either Docbook 4.5 or 5.0.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Jason
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Jason I saw your sed script to remove comments.  That is that problem
>>> >> solved :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't have any problem with the docbook toolchain and wouldn't
>>> >> lightly consider changing it.  I think it works well.  There is some
>>> >> learning involved and a shortage of non-technical tooling but yet it
>>> >> works well.  I would consider upgrading to 5.0 (or 5.1) as that might
>>> >> widen the scope of tooling available and would be relatively painless.
>>> >>
>>> >> But I agree that we need to focus on the concrete requirements rather
>>> >> than products.  And most of all, the content.
>>> >>
>>> >> On 7 April 2016 at 14:40, Jason Pickering <
>>> jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > Perhaps, but see my earlier mail regarding framework wars.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > This is the same discussion we are having about testing, use this
>>> >> > framework
>>> >> > or that framework. However, there are still too few tests, as no
>>> one can
>>> >> > agree.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We have something which works. We have content which needs to be
>>> >> > improved
>>> >> > and updated. If there is a compelling reason to move away from
>>> something
>>> >> > which, albeit somewhat dated ...works, maybe it would be good to
>>> outline
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > reasons for this change.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I see that Flare supports DITA, would that be a good alternative to
>>> >> >> DocBook?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> http://dita.xml.org/
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Bob Jolliffe <
>>> bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On a spectrum between low-level standardized technical docbook
>>> through
>>> >> >>> to "user friendly" (use Word), vendor-locked proprietary and
>>> patent
>>> >> >>> encumbered technology, this one seems to fall on the far right :-)
>>> >> >>> Not quite what I had in mind.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I can see the attraction but I would be very wary to go in this
>>> >> >>> direction.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On 7 April 2016 at 13:52, Rachael Brooke <rachael@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>> > Hi everyone,
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Cecilia and I have been thinking about trying out a new tool
>>> that
>>> >> >>> > could
>>> >> >>> > handle big documentation projects, translation files and other
>>> >> >>> > resources. So
>>> >> >>> > it's good timing that this issue is being raised by you.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > We were considering looking into a solution which you may know,
>>> >> >>> > called
>>> >> >>> > MadCap Flare: http://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > If you have any other suggestions, we'd be happy to hear your
>>> >> >>> > thoughts.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Thanks for bringing this up - we're investigating!
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Rachael
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> > wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Would be good to hear from our new documentation experts
>>> (Rachael
>>> >> >>> >> and
>>> >> >>> >> Cecilia) on this issue (what kinds of tools they would be
>>> >> >>> >> comfortable
>>> >> >>> >> with
>>> >> >>> >> etc).
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Knut
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Bob Jolliffe
>>> >> >>> >> <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> Hi Jason, Lars
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> I am not sure the link about oxygen nested comments is really
>>> >> >>> >>> addressing the "thing".
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> I agree with Lars that having the "<!-- Created by Serna Free
>>> -->"
>>> >> >>> >>> text inserted into all our documents is ugly, wrong and
>>> >> >>> >>> misleading.
>>> >> >>> >>> If you are using Serna Free I think it might be a simple
>>> courtesy
>>> >> >>> >>> to
>>> >> >>> >>> just strip those comments before committing.  Of course its
>>> >> >>> >>> possible
>>> >> >>> >>> to forget and maybe some sort of removal hook could be
>>> configured
>>> >> >>> >>> automatically (sed, xsltproc ..) but its maybe not so hard to
>>> just
>>> >> >>> >>> delete the line.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> I am not sure of what the problem is with oxygen encountering
>>> >> >>> >>> these
>>> >> >>> >>> comments are though.  Maybe I also don't get the "thing" :-)
>>> I
>>> >> >>> >>> open
>>> >> >>> >>> the docbook files with oxygen and don't encounter a problem
>>> >> >>> >>> related
>>> >> >>> >>> to
>>> >> >>> >>> the comment.  The docbook4 "type" seems to be immediately
>>> >> >>> >>> recognized
>>> >> >>> >>> and I get a Docbook4 menu appear when I switch to author mode
>>> >> >>> >>> whether
>>> >> >>> >>> the comment is there or not.  Is it an oxygen version issue (I
>>> >> >>> >>> currently use 17.1) or is there some other issue I am missing?
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> Though I think there are deeper issues at play.  First is that
>>> >> >>> >>> Serna
>>> >> >>> >>> Free seems no longer to be maintained (as a free version).
>>> One
>>> >> >>> >>> consequence of this being that using it keeps us frozen in
>>> time at
>>> >> >>> >>> docbook 4.4.  The last release of the docbook 4.x series was
>>> 4.5
>>> >> >>> >>> back
>>> >> >>> >>> in 2006.  The 5.0 (and now 5.1) series has been out for quite
>>> a
>>> >> >>> >>> long
>>> >> >>> >>> time now (2009?).  AFAIK the only reason for sticking with
>>> 4.x has
>>> >> >>> >>> been the availability of Serna Free.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> (Which is not a small thing.  The sad truth is that  another
>>> good
>>> >> >>> >>> free
>>> >> >>> >>> candidate for docbook editing by non-technical authors hasn't
>>> ever
>>> >> >>> >>> emerged.  Of course if you are more than a bit geeky then
>>> emacs
>>> >> >>> >>> does
>>> >> >>> >>> a
>>> >> >>> >>> good job.  But even I don't use emacs anymore for editing
>>> docbook
>>> >> >>> >>> documents.  I use oxygen, which is not free.)
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> Two thoughts come to mind:
>>> >> >>> >>> (i) it probably really makes sense to rejoin the (docbook)
>>> world
>>> >> >>> >>> and
>>> >> >>> >>> move from 4.4 to 5.0.  Particularly if the now defunct Serna
>>> Free
>>> >> >>> >>> is
>>> >> >>> >>> the only factor holding us back.  I understand that there are
>>> >> >>> >>> transforms available to make this a painless journey.  The
>>> best
>>> >> >>> >>> available in terms of free editing tools with a strong docbook
>>> >> >>> >>> focus
>>> >> >>> >>> seems to be the eclipse DEP4E plugin.  Otherwise there are the
>>> >> >>> >>> non-free tools as well as host of xml schema aware editors.
>>> >> >>> >>> Admittedly none of these really qualify as eminently suitable
>>> for
>>> >> >>> >>> non-technical authors so the problem isn't really completely
>>> >> >>> >>> solved,
>>> >> >>> >>> but maybe improved slightly.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> (ii) more radically, it might be time to consider moving from
>>> >> >>> >>> docbook
>>> >> >>> >>> altogether.  There are a host of "cool" alternatives
>>> (markdown and
>>> >> >>> >>> friends) none of which I am fond of, but they have
>>> enthusiastic
>>> >> >>> >>> supporters.  To me they all seem like endless reinventions of
>>> >> >>> >>> roff/nroff/groff and certainly lack the maturity of docbook.
>>>  But
>>> >> >>> >>> maybe the world has moved to a stage that its possible to
>>> consider
>>> >> >>> >>> editing html5/css3 documents directly?  Certainly there is
>>> >> >>> >>> considerable user friendly editing tools available.  And
>>> >> >>> >>> conversion
>>> >> >>> >>> to
>>> >> >>> >>> pdf seems not to be a problem.  Though whether this would
>>> cause
>>> >> >>> >>> the
>>> >> >>> >>> clean structure of documents to descend into anarchy I don't
>>> >> >>> >>> really
>>> >> >>> >>> know.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> My 2 cents.  I would certainly advocate (i) above (though
>>> admit
>>> >> >>> >>> its a
>>> >> >>> >>> strong response to just getting rid of Serna Free comments).
>>> (ii)
>>> >> >>> >>> frightens me quite a bit. Certainly would be a lot of work.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> In the end comes down to (i) who will do most of the
>>> documentation
>>> >> >>> >>> and
>>> >> >>> >>> what do they like or tolerate, (ii) what effort is justified
>>> to
>>> >> >>> >>> fiddle
>>> >> >>> >>> with what is really quite a nice looking set of existing
>>> >> >>> >>> documentation.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> For the moment lets at least agree to keep those horrible
>>> comments
>>> >> >>> >>> out.
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> Bob
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> On 6 April 2016 at 11:31, Jason Pickering
>>> >> >>> >>> <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>> > For instance, perhaps this
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> > http://www.oxygenxml.com/forum/topic3658.html
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> > which seems to describe a means of getting around comments.
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Jason Pickering
>>> >> >>> >>> > <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >> Hi Lars,
>>> >> >>> >>> >> I think there must be a way around this, and I would not
>>> be in
>>> >> >>> >>> >> favor
>>> >> >>> >>> >> at
>>> >> >>> >>> >> all of ditching Serna. Its a good tool and not everyone has
>>> >> >>> >>> >> access
>>> >> >>> >>> >> to
>>> >> >>> >>> >> a
>>> >> >>> >>> >> relatively expensive commercial tool like Oxygen.
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >> Serna Free inserts this automatically unfortunately when it
>>> >> >>> >>> >> saves
>>> >> >>> >>> >> the
>>> >> >>> >>> >> document, but lets look for a look around to deal with
>>> this in
>>> >> >>> >>> >> Oxygen.
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >> Regards,
>>> >> >>> >>> >> Jason
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Lars Helge Øverland
>>> >> >>> >>> >> <lars@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Hi,
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> re the documentation.The Serna editor horribly inserts a
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> <!-- Created by Serna Free -->
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> comment in all files it creates before the DTD. This
>>> throws
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> off
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Oxygen
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> from detecting it to be a Docbook format. Lets not use
>>> Serna
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> anymore
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> or at
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> least make sure we don't get comments in the beginning of
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> docbook
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> xml
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> files.
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Lars
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> --
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Lars Helge Øverland
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Lead developer, DHIS 2
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> University of Oslo
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Skype: larshelgeoverland
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> http://www.dhis2.org
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>>> >> >>> >>> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>> >> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>> >> --
>>> >> >>> >>> >> Jason P. Pickering
>>> >> >>> >>> >> email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>>> >> >>> >>> >> tel:+46764147049
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> > --
>>> >> >>> >>> > Jason P. Pickering
>>> >> >>> >>> > email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>>> >> >>> >>> > tel:+46764147049
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>>> >> >>> >>> > Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> >>> >>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>>> >> >>> >>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>> >> >>> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>>> >> >>> >>> Post to     : dhis2-documenters@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> >>> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-documenters
>>> >> >>> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> --
>>> >> >>> >> Knut Staring
>>> >> >>> >> Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo
>>> >> >>> >> Norway: +4791880522
>>> >> >>> >> Skype: knutstar
>>> >> >>> >> http://dhis2.org
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> Knut Staring
>>> >> >> Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo
>>> >> >> Norway: +4791880522
>>> >> >> Skype: knutstar
>>> >> >> http://dhis2.org
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Jason P. Pickering
>>> >> > email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>>> >> > tel:+46764147049
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Jason P. Pickering
>>> > email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>>> > tel:+46764147049
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jason P. Pickering
>> email: jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx
>> tel:+46764147049
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Knut Staring
> Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo
> Norway: +4791880522
> Skype: knutstar
> http://dhis2.org
>



-- 
Knut Staring
Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo
Norway: +4791880522
Skype: knutstar
http://dhis2.org