dhis2-users team mailing list archive

[Arthur Heywood <arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Carl
Well put ... the major challenge is certainly NOT a technological one -
that is (as usual) the easiest

To go back to my old favorite, the PRISM framework, it is the

   -  *organisational / managerial* determinants (Standard operating
   procedures, facility lists, reporting procedures etc)
   - *behavioural *determinants (coordination between departments, demand
   for data etc)

Once these are sorted, the technical part is easy
r
MY feeling is that we should sit down clearly and identify what OUTPUTS
(indicators, data elements for ) we need for RBF and other HR management
 and analysis tools tools .... and THEN see how we can most easily collect
the necessary data .....

To do this we need a

   -  clear vision from the various MoHs and NGOs (particularly UNICEF)
   whether they really want to do RBF .... and if there is a common vision we
   make a
   - plan (with associated budget) and
   - test this out in a few countries (e.g. Zanzibar)

Can we start moving towards this for the january workshop??

cheers
A
On Saturday, 8 October 2016, Carl Leitner <litlfred@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> At this point, the challenges in integrating DHIS2 and iHRIS for
> indicators are pretty much entirely related to governance and
> coordination.  The technological tools are there (and they are getting
> simpler and simpler to use).   If anyone is wanting help in these areas,
> please reach out to us (IntraHealth) and we should be able to find a way to
> support you with the tools and provide further guidance.
>
> The main challenges in order of complexity, as I see them, are:
>
>    - Often the HR and HMIS units do not work in close co-ordination.
>    The information needs for the HR unit (and other similar stakeholders) are
>    different than for the HMIS unit.  If there is no formal platform (e.g. a
>    TWG)  for these groups to coordinate on and jointly own issues related to
>    information needs and the associated data exchange needed to support this,
>    than any attempt to have  sustainable data exchange will be dead in the
>    water.   This, in my opinion, is the major point of failure.
>    - Lack of agreement of facility lists, as has already been mentioned.
>       There are a couple of situations here:
>       - One system (e.g. DHIS2) becomes the authority for the facility
>       data.  In this case, there is existing tooling for iHRIS to load in DHIS2
>       facility data using a third piece of standards compliant software (more on
>       that below) to handle the data management, an “InterLinked Registry".  This
>       situation can be problematic, as Kayode alludes to,  if the two systems do
>       not agree on what is a facility.   The set of facilities from an HR
>       perspective is larger than the set of facilities that provide clinical
>       services, for example.
>       - DHIS2 and iHRIS each maintain their own independent facility
>       lists.   This is the most common scenario and occurs when the HMIS unit
>       does not agree to adopt all of the facilities that are required for the HR
>       unit.   In this case, we need to ensure that the iHRIS facilities can
>       cross-reference the DHIS2 facilities.   There is significant tooling on
>       this already, again using third piece of standards compliant software.
>       Note, on the OpenHIE InterLinked Registry call this Wednesday  (see below),
>       Ally will be showing us some of the facility matching/de-duplication tools
>       he developed for Sierra Leone and now extended to be used in other
>       contexts.  Jembi has also worked on a lot of tooling to help automate and
>       monitor the synchronization processes through the OpenHIM software.
>       - There is a third party facility registry that both DHIS2 and
>       iHRIS should synchronize with.  This is a pretty uncommon scenario.
>    - Lack of agreement on the cadre, job or other health worker
>    classification to report on.   There are three types of stakeholders here,
>    and usually each has a different set of classifications for health workers
>    they are interested in. These stakeholders are the HMIS unit with DHIS2,
>    the HR unit with software like iHRIS Manage, and the professional councils
>    with software like iHRIS Qualify.  iHRIS Manage will give you the currently
>    deployed health workers, while iHRIS Qualify would give you total number of
>    available/licensed (though not necessarily deployed) health workers.  There
>    are a couple of other HRIS systems that are also coming: iHRIS Train which
>    is used to manage information a national picture on the health workers
>    graduating from academic institutions and the iHRIS Community Health Worker
>    Registry.
>
>    Because of this multiple types of classification, we often need to map
>    the cadres from the source HRIS system into the cadres required for the
>    HMIS/DHIS2.    This mapping can be handled within the HRIS system or can be
>    handled through the use of a Terminology Service (TS) which handles mapping
>    between terminologies.   Though a TS is a bit more overhead, I think it
>    would be warranted in a country such as Nigeria with many HRISs (one for
>    state and one for each professional council) and which is already
>    contemplating a TS as part of their larger eHealth Architecture.
>    - Finally, there is a technical challenge in that the DHIS2 API
>    changes over time with different versions of DHIS2.   The risks here are
>    contained when we use open international standards for data exchange.
>    Right now we support the “Care Services Discovery (CSD)” standard for
>    exchange of the facility and org unit hierarchy between the systems.   In
>    the coming year we will see support for the more modern and RESTful FHIR
>    standard.  For data reporting into DHIS2, we need to make better use of the
>    ADX standard to help mitigate issues w/ DHIS2 API changes.  Though the the
>    necessary tooling isn’t in place quite yet, I think we will see it over the
>    next year.
>    - Documentation.   Because these tools have evolved over time, and
>     because the scenarios have a fairly wide range, we don’t have yet a
>    complete tutorial on all the needed steps.   There is partial
>    documentation, but it needs a bit of tender loving care.
>
>
> Note, that we are trying to pull together a training/workshop to address
> exactly these issues (and explore what you can than do with the data) just
> after the upcoming DHIS2 academy in Tanzania.   More on that as the plans
> become more concrete.   We certainly would have the documentation improved
> by then ;-)
>
> Nothing in the above is particularly special to iHRIS and DHIS2 and are
> applicable to any HRIS and HMIS.    In Zimbabwe they are going through the
> same considerations, though they don’t use iHRIS.
>
> Cheers,
> -carl
>
>
> Here is the information for the call mentioned above.  Please join if you
> would like to discuss!
>
> *OpenHIE InterLinked Registry Community Call*
> 9:00 – 10:00 am EST one Wednesday a month (see other time zones
> http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/)
>
> *Agenda & Notes*
> https://wiki.ohie.org/display/resources/InterLinked+
> Registries+Community+Call
>
> The numbers to call are:
> US: 800-220-9875
> Norway: 800-142-85
> Ireland: 800-625-002
> Canada: 800-221-8656
> South Africa 0-800-982-555
> International (Not Toll-free) 1-302-709-8332
> For additional toll free country numbers *click here*
> <https://openhie.atlassian.net/wiki/download/attachments/524314/Intl%20TF%20Numbers%20Oct%202012.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1354043516340&api=v2>
> .
>
> *Passcode – 34048002#*
> I can dial in any participants who are not able to connect through Skype
> or one of the above numbers. Please email me in advance to be dialed in.
> For any issues or concerns during the call, please find Emily on *Skype* at
> enicholson_intrah
>
> On Oct 8, 2016, at 7:25 AM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx');>> wrote:
>
> Hi Kayode
>
> I think they can.
>
> It is just that usually they are not because hmis people generally
> assemble the orgunit hierarchy to support reporting requirements for
> hmis.   Just as LMIS people assemble theirs with logistics logic in
> mind.
>
> But absolutely nothing which can't be addressed through "local
> arrangements and understandings"
>
> On 8 October 2016 at 13:16, Kayode Odusote <odusote.kayode@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','odusote.kayode@xxxxxxxxx');>> wrote:
>
> Dear Bob,
>
> Getting back to what you said, why can't offices in the Ministry be
> included in the DHIS2 facility list?  They are also service centres
> though they are offering administrative services and should need
> monitoring as well.
>
> Kayode
>
>
> On 10/8/16, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx');>> wrote:
>
> Hi Lungo
>
> Not quite what I said.  It is early days for the SL shining case study
> but well worth watching.
>
> Cheers
> Bob
>
> On 8 October 2016 at 11:29, Juma Lungo <jlungo@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jlungo@xxxxxxxxx');>> wrote:
>
> Dear Arthur,
>
> Bob has said it all. To integrate health systems, the culprit is the
> facility list. As the list evolve, the integration die automatically.
>
> Facility registry is the way to go. Making both, the DHIS2 and iHRIS
> referencing an external database of the facility makes the integration
> permanent. Both, DHIS2 and iHRIS can easily be configured to learn
> facility
> attributes from external database easier.
>
> See Gerald's case study from Sierra Leone. It is our shining case study.
>
> One thing you need to take note is, even though right now you are looking
> for a minimum functions for a HR system, the moment you implement demands
> will increase. This is where iHRIS is the best option.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lungo
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> To: Arthur Heywood <arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> Cc: Juma Lungo <jlungo@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jlungo@xxxxxxxxx');>>; dhis2-users
> <dhis2-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dhis2-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx');>>; "
> calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx');>"
> <calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx');>>; dhis2-devs <
> dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx');>>
> Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2016 7:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dhis2-users] [Dhis2-devs] Looking for Human Resource System
> to
> integrate with DHIS
>
> Hi Arthur
>
> Carl will probably be able to point you to various cases where this
> has been done with dhis2 and ihris.  I am familiar with examples from
> Zanzibar, Kenya and Rwanda which sort of worked but none of which
> could fairly be described as successful in the sense of sustained use
> as far as I know.
>
> I think the main tricky bit to get right is the harmonization of
> health facilities in the two systems not just as one off, but with
> processes to keep them harmonized.  You might only have 20 indicators
> of interest but you have 1000s of facilities.  As soon as the orgunits
> start diverging the interoperability starts falling apart.  I think
> there was also some interesting work done in Bihar on this problem.
>
> One conventionasl "wisdom" that has done the rounds over the past few
> years is that a separate facility registry is the solution to this.  I
> am less sure.  In practice you now find that whereas before the
> problem was harmonizing between 2 systems, now it becomes more complex
> because you have 3 :-)  Add more with LMIS etc ..
>
> So 2 alternative approaches emerge:
> 1. retreat to dhis2 and try and do everything there - sometimes this
> sort of works for many things (which is better than most), but it has
> obvious limits and I don't believe can serve as the basis of long term
> strategy to solve all problems
> 2.  insist that any system that sends data to dhis2 treats dhis2 as
> the authoritative source of facility registry data.  If only they
> would :-)  Unfortunately dhis2 view of the
> physical/geographic/administrative world of the health system can
> diverge sometimes significantly from that of an HRIS system - think of
> MOH employees at offices not involved in health service delivery for
> example.  So there are local arrangements and understandings to be
> made, but in general I think this path holds the most potential,
>
> In practice I think we have to concede the problems have been unsolved
> for now.  Unless someone can point me otherwise.  The challenge seems
> on the surface to be technically fairly trivial,  But beneath lurk
> demons.
>
> Cheers
> Bob
>
> On 8 October 2016 at 07:13, Arthur Heywood <arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> wrote:
>
> Lungo
> Good to hear from you ... long time no see
> Thanks for this .... can you tell me where we have a SUCCESSFUL
> implementation where one can actually get IHRIS data through DHIS and
> make
> integrated indicators, use IHRIS indicators for Bottleneck analysis etc
>
> Regards
> Arthur
>
> **Without deviation from the norm, there can be no progress* *(Frank
> Zappa)
> *Skype* arthur_heywood_za
> Tanzania* +255-773669393 OR +255 673150252
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5 October 2016 at 06:54, Juma Lungo <jlungo@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jlungo@xxxxxxxxx');>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Arthur,
>
> I would recommend iHRIS.
>
> It has many features, integrates nicely with DHIS2, implemented in many
> countries and it is being supported by an active community working
> closely
> with DHIS2 developers.
>
> Lungo
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Calle Hedberg <calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> To: Arthur Heywood <arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> Cc: dhis2-users <dhis2-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dhis2-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx');>>;
> dhis2-devs
> <dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dhis2-devs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx');>>; gerald
> thomas
> <gerald17006@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gerald17006@xxxxxxxxx');>>;
> Seleman Ally <seleman_ally@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','seleman_ally@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 10:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dhis2-devs] [Dhis2-users] Looking for Human Resource
> System
> to integrate with DHIS
>
> Arthur,
>
> I'm not directly involved with the HRIS work using DHIS, my current
> focus
> is on a fully integrated disease surveillance system. Will find out and
> get
> back to you.
>
> Regards
> Calle
>
> On 4 October 2016 at 15:15, Arthur Heywood <arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','arthurheywood@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> wrote:
>
> Calle
> In Zambia we are also looking to set up what you call a "core" Human
> Resource HMIS ... mainly to do some "Bottleneck analysis" for our MDGi
> districts ...
>
> Are we able to use a beta version and see what we are able to adapt it
> to
> our needs (same people being called different professional jobs  etc)
> and
> then feed back into the development process ....interesting to know how
> far
> you have progressed?
>
> Cheers
> a
>
> **Without deviation from the norm, there can be no progress* *(Frank
> Zappa)
> *Skype* arthur_heywood_za
> Tanzania* +255-773669393 OR +255 673150252
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 26 August 2016 at 23:08, Calle Hedberg <calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> wrote:
>
> Laura,
>
> The two main HRIS component designs "within" DHIS2 are the HRHIS in
> Tanzania and another in Vietnam (John Lewis or Morten will be able to
> tell
> you more about that one).
>
> South Africa is currently using a customised Tracker app for managing
> Community Service and Internships (around 10,000 graduates are applying
> for
> internship or Community Service posts per annum).
>
> We are also working on a "core" workforce registry tightly integrated
> with
> DHIS2. By "core" I mean it will only deal with actual HR resources
> including
> position, what they are licensed/authorised to do, and contact details.
> Things like continuous education, bursaries, payroll, etc are
> processed/managed by other systems. A major advantage of tight
> integration
> will be the ability to use DHIS2 communication and messages + user
> registration to communicate directly with health workers - in
> particular
> since health workers increasingly will be interacting directly with
> DHIS2
> on
> a daily basis through (daily) capturing of routine data, disease
> notifications, various Tracker apps (browser or Android), etc.
>
> Your basic requirements seem very similar: your primary need is to
> track
> the workforce as an INPUT RESOURCE to health service delivery, and not
> to
> track salaries and CVs and health insurance and employment history and
> a
> bunch of other "personal" things. So you need to know WHO they are,
> where
> they actually work and with what (in what position), what they are able
> to
> do (mostly this relates to formal/legal practice licensing etc, but it
> could
> be expanded to include specialist knowledge about certain diseases
> etc),
> and
> how to contact them.
>
> Regards
> Calle
>
> On 26 August 2016 at 21:56, gerald thomas <gerald17006@xxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gerald17006@xxxxxxxxx');>>
> wrote:
>
> I had use ihris and it is good. If you want help with it I am willing
> to
> help.
>
> On Aug 26, 2016 6:46 PM, "Laura E. Lincks"
> <laura.lincks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','laura.lincks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx');>
> u> wrote:
>
> We are looking for a simple Human Resources tool to integrate with a
> DHIS
> aggregate database. Little is known of the needs of the HRIS, but for
> now
> it
> needs to track personnel details and groups of personnel will need to
> be
> associated with various programs in a separate DHIS aggregate database.
> An
> Open Source HRIS is preferable.
>
> In searching for tools I have come across the following:
> HRHIS in Tanzania developed by the HISP-TZ/University of Dar es Salaam
> iHRIS developed by global Capacity Project.
>
> I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of or experience with these
> packages or if there were other applications that could be of use to
> us?
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone with leads or information.
>
> Laura E. Lincks
> Database Manager/Developer
> ICAP - Columbia University
> Mailman School of Public Health
> 60 Haven Ave, Floor B1
> New York, NY 10032
> Tel: 212 304 7132
>
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> --
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> --
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> Tel/fax (home): +27-21-685-6472
> Cell: +27-82-853-5352
> Iridium SatPhone: +8816-315-19119
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> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','calle.hedberg@xxxxxxxxx');>
> Skype: calle_hedberg
>
>
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-- 
*****Without deviation from the norm, there can be no progress*** *(Frank
Zappa)*
*Skype* arthur_heywood_za
Tanzania* +255-773669393 OR +255 673150252