elementary-dev-community team mailing list archive

[Lochlan Bunn <loklaan@xxxxxxxxx>]

I have read alot about TTD, both in school and in persistent articles. I've
used it to develop a small gui based game, and I can say that I liked the
flow once I was used to it. I used JUnit & Eclipse, and that was all that
was needed the whole time.

So when it comes to elementary dev, and vala/gtk/linux dev in general, I'd
be interested in reading/learning how to write unit test (suites) for vala
in respects to both CI, a la Launchpad, packaging, and moreso in an IDE.


On 27 April 2013 07:48, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I agree wholeheartedly. And as Cassidy mentioned, we can use scratch as
> the incubation project.  Would any devs be interested in volunteering to
> learn? Jaap, would you be interested in helping instruct?
> On Apr 26, 2013 3:25 PM, "Jaap Broekhuizen" <jaapz.b@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I also think implementing Behavorial testing (applying BDD) is very
>> relevant for us, as we are focussing a lot on user interface and
>> interaction.
>>
>> So imo we should start on a project which we can use as a playground for
>> both unit an behavorial testing.
>>
>> Does anyone know of good vala bdd frameworks?
>>
>> Jaap
>> Op 26 apr. 2013 22:21 schreef "Cassidy James" <cassidy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> het volgende:
>>
>>> I don't think we need any convincing; everything I've heard from the
>>> devs is that we need to do this. It's just a matter of figuring out a
>>> common way of doing it.
>>>
>>> Craig, a relatively small/new project that could use testing is the new
>>> Scratch or even the new work going on with Contractor. Both are (from what
>>> I understand) fresh codebases and now might be the time to work  on tests.
>>> I recommend you hop into #elementary-dev and work with the devs on getting
>>> some tests worked out.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Cassidy
>>> On Apr 26, 2013 11:04 AM, "Pál Dorogi" <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I dunno, I am a newbie here.
>>>>
>>>> On 26 April 2013 22:24, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> > That's exactly what I'd like to know: how can I help. I can try and
>>>> post
>>>> > some tutorials, but I'd like to know who is interested and what the
>>>> > development community already knows.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Apr 26, 2013 6:39 AM, "Pál Dorogi" <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi Craig,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I agree 100% /w you, but I think you should write some tutorials and
>>>> >> post them in your blog, if you have any. But in my opinion that the
>>>> >> human beings do not like "re-learn" things and the real OOP, Design
>>>> >> Patterns, SOLID, TDD etc. etc. are very steep and time for a non-real
>>>> >> OOP/DP experienced Programmer/Developer.
>>>> >> Also, the learning curve is very steep for these advanced stuffs and
>>>> >> needs long time to get there. But, nobody would not know how good are
>>>> >> they until haven't learnt and used those stuffs, would they?.:)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I did sine similar things, getting some new fresh things (TDD,
>>>> >> MvvM/Presentation Model Design Pattern) to programming in Vala
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ((
>>>> http://ilapstech.blogspot.com/2013/04/advanced-programming-in-vala-dafs.html
>>>> )
>>>> >> but you should keep in mind that this kind of new things (TDD, DP,
>>>> >> SOLDI, MVVM etc. etc.) are like evolution (evolution in Programming)
>>>> >> which needs some time to get it succeeded (or failed).:)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 26 April 2013 20:36, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> >> > Hello everyone,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I'm just leaving San Jose after having spent a week listening to a
>>>> lot
>>>> >> > of
>>>> >> > smart people talk about, among other things, Test Driven
>>>> Development
>>>> >> > (TDD).
>>>> >> > I know I keep harping on this, but among the people who write the
>>>> >> > coolest,
>>>> >> > best software (and other average software folks) TDD is seen as
>>>> >> > absolutely
>>>> >> > critical. I can't point to anything other discipline in the
>>>> software
>>>> >> > world
>>>> >> > that is of comparable importance. And here's why:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > When we start writing software, we can manage it with a couple of
>>>> >> > developers, perhaps all the way up through the first release;
>>>> however,
>>>> >> > as we
>>>> >> > add features, our software becomes more complex. It's hard for us
>>>> to
>>>> >> > remember what parts of our programs worked well before and what
>>>> parts
>>>> >> > are
>>>> >> > broken. We often make changes to the underlying architecture to
>>>> >> > facilitate a
>>>> >> > new feature, but we're not exactly sure if in doing so, we broke an
>>>> >> > existing
>>>> >> > feature. And we'll of course do a little ad hoc manual testing to
>>>> verify
>>>> >> > that things still work, but we're only going to really check 5-10%
>>>> of
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > code that we most suspect would break. And even if we do power
>>>> through,
>>>> >> > we're only going to ever check 60-70% of the code, and it's all a
>>>> very
>>>> >> > slow,
>>>> >> > unreliable process. Soon we spend all of our time fighting bugs
>>>> and we
>>>> >> > can
>>>> >> > never get around to any interesting work. Does this pattern sound
>>>> >> > familiar?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > With TDD, you write a simple, small test for every piece of
>>>> interesting
>>>> >> > code
>>>> >> > you write, and every time you rebuild the project, all of your old
>>>> tests
>>>> >> > run. If you're writing good tests, you can be assured that all of
>>>> your
>>>> >> > code
>>>> >> > works as you intend it to every single time you build, and if
>>>> someone
>>>> >> > merges
>>>> >> > in a bug, it will be caught immediately (and the test that fails
>>>> will
>>>> >> > give
>>>> >> > you some good information about what broke/where the bug is
>>>> hiding).
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Of course, it takes time to write tests; however, it's still much
>>>> less
>>>> >> > time
>>>> >> > than you would spend debugging your code. Furthermore, when you
>>>> write
>>>> >> > tests
>>>> >> > before you write your production code, you are forced to design
>>>> your
>>>> >> > code
>>>> >> > modularly just to make it testable. Among software professionals,
>>>> TDD is
>>>> >> > seen as the fastest way to write software. I mean, Luna has been
>>>> 90%
>>>> >> > complete for 90% of its development cycle, and this is a common
>>>> pattern
>>>> >> > in
>>>> >> > the software world.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > With all of this in mind, I'd like to know how I can help you guys
>>>> start
>>>> >> > practicing TDD? If this hasn't persuaded you, I'd appreciate it if
>>>> you
>>>> >> > would
>>>> >> > respond and give your perspective so we can talk about it. I'm very
>>>> >> > interested in seeing you guys continue to put out great software,
>>>> but
>>>> >> > I'm
>>>> >> > concerned that as you write more code, you're going to be creating
>>>> more
>>>> >> > for
>>>> >> > yourselves to maintain and the amount of time you spend writing new
>>>> >> > software
>>>> >> > is going to drop off exponentially as the complexity (as complexity
>>>> >> > produces
>>>> >> > bugs) increases.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Please let me know if/how I can help you.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Craig
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>>>> >> > Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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>>>> >> >
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>> --
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>>
>>
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>