elementary-dev-community team mailing list archive

[Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx>]

BDD tools don't really help with GUI development... They just make the test
cases look prettier to humans who can't read code.


On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Sajith Dilshan <sajithdilshan@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> You can use behavior driven development (BDD) e.g. for rails there is
> cucumber and capabara
> On Aug 22, 2013 2:19 AM, "A. "Xylon" V." <avlabs314@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Thanks guys, another noob question, how do we write tests for GUIs? Like
>> give different inputs to a dialog, or to an entry?
>> On Aug 21, 2013 9:46 PM, "Jaap Broekhuizen" <jaapz.b@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> The whole point of test driven development is tot write tests for
>>> functionality that does not exist, and then implement the functionality
>>> based on that test. You just write tests for the functionality you are
>>> going tot build, and use them as a blueprint for the actual implementation.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jaap
>>> Op 21 aug. 2013 22:38 schreef "A. "Xylon" V." <avlabs314@xxxxxxxxx> het
>>> volgende:
>>>
>>>> Ermm, another quick question, how do we write tests for code which
>>>> hasn't been written yet? Are we supposed to magically predict bugs or what
>>>> features another developer might add?
>>>> On Aug 21, 2013 9:35 PM, "Kurt Smolderen" <kurt.smolderen@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This might be one point of view to look at it, but let me try to
>>>>> explain another. Most of the time I'm a Java and C++ developer. I've been
>>>>> experimenting with Vala a few times, of which many of them was actually
>>>>> about hunting bugs in existing programs not written by myself. When
>>>>> programming in Java, I almost always write tests before actually writing
>>>>> the main code. The reason for this is twofold:
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. My personal experience is that it actually lead to a better
>>>>>    design as you are forced to think in small chunks of code (the code must be
>>>>>    testable)
>>>>>     2. Java has the tools to make writing tests (and run them) very
>>>>>    easy. JUnit and others are well integrated in IDEs such as Eclipse,
>>>>>    Netbeans, IntelliJ and others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now let's go back to the bug-hunting stuff. As a Java developer, I
>>>>> sometimes had to hunt for bugs in programs written by others. Although I
>>>>> was unfamiliar in almost all the cases with the actual code, it was more
>>>>> easy to find bugs in code which had tests written for it, compared to the
>>>>> code which did not include tests. The reason: the code was often much more
>>>>> structured when tests were written and from the tests it was more easy to
>>>>> 'guess' the initial developer 'intentions'.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason I'm sharing this is that I actually do not believe that
>>>>> writing tests will drive new contributors away, but might be a way of
>>>>> attracting them as their initial 'confrontation' with Elementary code might
>>>>> be more successful. They stumble upon a bug and decide to have a look at
>>>>> the code. As Vala is currently missing a decent IDE (such as Eclipse,...)
>>>>> and debugging isn't as easy due to the fact the code is translated into C,
>>>>> its often very difficult to analyse the flow of a program. Available tests
>>>>> might help this initial contributors with analysing the existing code and
>>>>> actually find (and fix) the bug they were hunting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course this story also proves that even when people write tests,
>>>>> bug occurs. And in many cases, bugs occur due to the fact that test are not
>>>>> 100% correct (for example, they do not sufficiently tests special cases).
>>>>> But at the same time, if the new contributor wants his code to work, he
>>>>> probably will adjust the existing tests as well and hence improve the
>>>>> overall test-quality of the program.
>>>>>
>>>>> So in order to conclude: I really think tests might be a way to make
>>>>> it easier for new contributors to succeed in their willingness to get
>>>>> involved into the elementary project. However, some things need to be kept
>>>>> in mind: (1) Vala is currently not that well supported in IDEs which makes
>>>>> it more difficult for Java/ C#/ C(++) developers to get into it and (2)
>>>>> tools need to be available which make it easy to write and execute the
>>>>> tests.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 21-08-13 18:15, Julien wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So if I'm not mistaken, TDD requires you to write tests *before*implementing something.
>>>>>
>>>>>  This might work well for teams with enough developers that don't
>>>>> have to rely on volunteers and drive-by contributors, but I don't see this
>>>>> working out for elementary, at least not at this point.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Many contributors fix a few small bugs here and there and don't have
>>>>> much experience with development, which is why we try to keep the entry
>>>>> barrier really low for new devs. When I started here, I had no experience
>>>>> with Vala, Gtk and Launchpad at all, and I just fixed some easy bugs,
>>>>> implemented some small features in various apps and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>>  If we used TDD, we would have to reject most code by new devs,
>>>>> because they didn't implement tests, and then we'll have to explain to them
>>>>> how to use tests, and then they'll have to write tests, but that's bad
>>>>> because you have to write them before you write the actual code ...
>>>>>
>>>>>  It's going to be a mess.
>>>>>
>>>>>  What might work are regular unit tests, implemented by people who
>>>>> kind of know what they're doing (we need some documentation for that, maybe
>>>>> add it to the dev guide). This will give us some of the TDD benefits w/o
>>>>> deterring potential new devs.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx><weberc2@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never heard a project die because they decided to move to TDD.
>>>>>> And I heard about lots of hits on the matter.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  This. I've heard (and witnessed) a lot of projects drop their defect
>>>>> percentage from 20% to 3%.  A lot of new-to-TDD developers don't like it at
>>>>> first because it feels slower, but I don't think those people remember how
>>>>> much time is spent bug hunting at the end of a release cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I think the next step is to find a pilot project and get the lead
>>>>> developer(s) to agree to work toward TDD. This will probably look like:
>>>>>
>>>>>  1) Modifying the project structure to include _test directories
>>>>>  2) Creating tests with GLib.Test or some such
>>>>>  3) Coaching/mentoring the developers at TDD
>>>>>  4) Performing code reviews in which insufficiently tested code is
>>>>> sent back for revision
>>>>>
>>>>> After testing it out for a few months, the community can see how they
>>>>> like it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this sound like a reasonable approach? If so, would any project
>>>>> leads like to volunteer their project? And who in the community would like
>>>>> to participate in such an experiment?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Alex Lourie <djay.il@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  We don't need to exaggerate. Though TDD is, indeed, a development
>>>>>> methodology, it is not supposed to completely change the way everyone works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Just consider that writing a good test takes about 10 minutes, and
>>>>>> that each developer writes one or two tests for new stuff they add (or the
>>>>>> old one they fix) from time to time. Then, in time, you'll have part of
>>>>>> your code tested, which is exactly what we're aiming for. Beginning is
>>>>>> hard, continue something is easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I have never heard a project die because they decided to move to
>>>>>> TDD. And I heard about lots of hits on the matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Albert Palacios <
>>>>>> optimisme@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Thanks for your explanation and the linked video. I am still
>>>>>>> agnostic, but I don't want to be the only one who complained about the
>>>>>>> proposal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  At this point I have more questions than answers, and those will
>>>>>>> probably be solved with a working example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  But remember, *TDD is a development methodology* not a testing
>>>>>>> methodology. It will change our development work flow, and will probably
>>>>>>> move potential volunteers away from the project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  TDD like every other development methodology does not fit every
>>>>>>> project or team. It can be a hit, and it can even the death of the project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Albert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:50 AM, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Albert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Thanks for your response, you asked a lot of great questions. In
>>>>>>>> addition to Gufran's earlier response.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Can you prove that there will be huge benefits in time/resources?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Well, that depends on what you consider "proof". In the spring,
>>>>>>>> my company paid several thousand dollars to send me to a conference in San
>>>>>>>> Jose in which many software development authorities recited, "test driven
>>>>>>>> development pays itself off in iteration 0". That means the very first time
>>>>>>>> you write the code it has already paid for itself (because even before you
>>>>>>>> get the automatic-regression testing benefits, you've already got the
>>>>>>>> benefits of a better architecture and documentation--because the tests
>>>>>>>> _are_ the documentation!). I'm sure I can dig up lots of other resources,
>>>>>>>> but I think it should suffice to say that I've never heard an expert
>>>>>>>> comment on TDD except to say it's fastest way to develop quality software.
>>>>>>>> For more information addressing your specific concerns, see the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>> article's "benefits" section (and read on to the "shortcomings" as it is
>>>>>>>> also relevant:
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test-driven_development#Benefits.
>>>>>>>> Even more importantly, this short video:
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DodJQyHsmHI
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Can you prove that there will be less bugs? (looks like that if
>>>>>>>>> tests are not right, bugs will populate equally).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  It's pretty hard to write bad tests if you're practicing TDD,
>>>>>>>> because you write the test first, watch it fail, insert the code you need
>>>>>>>> to make it pass, and then hopefully watch it pass. If you wrote a bad test,
>>>>>>>> it very probably will pass before you've written the code to make it pass
>>>>>>>> (which serves to alert the programmer that his test is bad or his software
>>>>>>>> is doing something unexpected) or the test will fail after he has correctly
>>>>>>>> written the next line of code (which serves to alert the programmer to
>>>>>>>> review both the code and his test and identify the source of the problem).
>>>>>>>> For this reason alone, many, many bugs are eliminated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  From what's been said, looks like there will be an extra effort
>>>>>>>>> on development, adding complexity and more tools to know (not to say
>>>>>>>>> maintain).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Besides the initial learning curve, development actually goes
>>>>>>>> _faster_ with TDD (see the aforementioned Wikipedia article--I can provide
>>>>>>>> more resources on demand) because debugging time becomes exponentially more
>>>>>>>> expensive as time passes after the bug has been introduced. This is because
>>>>>>>> the bug can live anywhere in any code that has been added *since the last
>>>>>>>> time the tests were run* and because the programmer will have an
>>>>>>>> increasingly difficult time remembering the code he wrote at the time of
>>>>>>>> the bug as time progresses. With TDD, you are running the tests after every
>>>>>>>> change (generally you test every time you build), so as soon as you've
>>>>>>>> broken something you find out about it. This means that the bug is
>>>>>>>> guaranteed to live in the last change you made, which is a smaller sample
>>>>>>>> and fresher-in-your-mind than changes you made weeks ago. Regarding your
>>>>>>>> complexity concern, generally the process isn't complex (it's actually very
>>>>>>>> simple) and it _simplifies_ development once you learn how to do it. The
>>>>>>>> most complex part is figuring out how to integrate testing into the CMake
>>>>>>>> project, and that's only complicated because CMake is complicated.
>>>>>>>> Regarding tools, there are already testing tools available for Vala,
>>>>>>>> including GLib (so we don't have to maintain anything). Anyway, testing
>>>>>>>> tools don't take a terribly long time to learn.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Can we focus on the half done things before adding new projects?
>>>>>>>>> Granite is not ready, documentation is missing, not to talk about the bugs
>>>>>>>>> that survived Luna release ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  TDD is more valuable the sooner you start implementing it. Even
>>>>>>>> if you didn't write tests for old code and only started TDD with new code
>>>>>>>> (and existing defects), you would be doing yourself a huge favor. I'm not
>>>>>>>> suggesting that everyone stop what they're doing and go back and test every
>>>>>>>> line of code (although it would be a good thing to chip away at over time),
>>>>>>>> but practicing TDD on _new_ code can't hurt that much, can it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With that in mind, are there any arguments against TDD that
>>>>>>>> outweigh its merits?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks again for your questions! :)
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Albert Palacios <
>>>>>>>> optimisme@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Craig and Gufran,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  I don't agree with TDD, and making a committee. Can you prove
>>>>>>>>> that there will be huge benefits in time/resources? Can you prove that
>>>>>>>>> there will be less bugs? (looks like that if tests are not right, bugs will
>>>>>>>>> populate equally). Can you prove that creating, modifying and fixing code
>>>>>>>>> is going to be easier?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  From what's been said, looks like there will be an extra effort
>>>>>>>>> on development, adding complexity and more tools to know (not to say
>>>>>>>>> maintain).  Can we focus on the half done things before adding new
>>>>>>>>> projects? Granite is not ready, documentation is missing, not to talk about
>>>>>>>>> the bugs that survived Luna release ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Gufran <dogabhai@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Count me in.
>>>>>>>>>> I cant really put forward any point on how should we proceed but
>>>>>>>>>> I'd definitely love to be with the team.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, a *testing committee* is a good idea, maybe something
>>>>>>>>>> independent of dev community. We can write scripts to automate tests, and
>>>>>>>>>> we can do that in any language (Python for example), so it would be like a
>>>>>>>>>> Python coupling between software and tests.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my two cents :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:43 PM, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  This is cool and important, but I don't think it should stop
>>>>>>>>>>> the discussion on test driven development. Perhaps this could be a separate
>>>>>>>>>>> thread? It doesn't sound as though anyone is opposed to TDD, so can we
>>>>>>>>>>> confirm that? And if no one is opposed, how can we proceed? Can we start
>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of a "testing committee" to help determine what testing steps are
>>>>>>>>>>> needed, what framework to use, and how to integrate testing into the
>>>>>>>>>>> existing project structure (i.e., using CMake)?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Does this sound like a good plan? Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:05 PM, David Gomes <
>>>>>>>>>>> david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll work on it, so far we only have this I made:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19899464/reviewstutorial.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Albert Palacios <
>>>>>>>>>>>> optimisme@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Munchor,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  A contribution / bug fixing step by step guide is needed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the developers site. There was a .pdf before the new site change, but now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is impossible to find.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The problem with the old guide is that it encouraged to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create your own branch instead of using the ~elementary-dev-community one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (this is totally new for me). Obviously, bazaar guides doesn't teach you on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> using the "elementary-dev-community".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 6:57 PM, David Gomes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I always tell people if they make their branches owned by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~elementary-dev-community I will volunteer to fix the code style myself. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have all the free time and the will to do it, just people always make their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> branches owned by themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  ~David "Munchor" Gomes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Albert Palacios Jimenez <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> optimisme@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before talking about testing, and advanced development
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> techniques for teams with resources, there is one easy and simple thing we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can do to accelerate development.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes (very often), bugs are stopped due spaces not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following the "code style" guidelines. Adding a "code style" validator
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> script before compiling, we can prevent uploads with spaces at the end of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the lines ...  and save a lot of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, just executing the next line before compiling:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 sed -i 's/[ \t]*$//'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We will remove every "white space" at the end of any line,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including new lines with tab spaces.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This can sound stupid, but it is absurd to block bug fixes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during several days due white spaces at the end of lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>  Alex Lourie
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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