gtg-contributors team mailing list archive

[Lionel Dricot <ploum@xxxxxxxxx>]

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Le 24/03/12 01:06, Bertrand Rousseau a écrit :
> Parsing your reply, I tried to identify "goals" that we could
> assign to GTG. I could identify those goals:
> 
> - GTG should promote a useful definition of tasks, a.k.a. an
> action (verb) towards a goal, and - help people to refine those
> tasks down to actionable tasks (a.k.a. tasks that do not require
> the prior accomplishment of another task to be realized). - GTG
> should help people identify what task they can actually do to 
> progress in their various projects. - GTG should help people to
> focus only on the relevant tasks given one's specific context
> 
> Anti-goals (things GTG should not try to accomplish):
> 
> - GTG should not actively fight against "abuse" (use of GTG that 
> doesn't lead to efficient organization): GTG should not track down
> or actively try to prevent those behaviors.
> 
> 
> And what about those goals?
> 
> - GTG should help people to keep control on everything they have to
> do.


I agree with all of the above. In the manifesto, I've summarized that
in 4 points:

GTG should :

1) Relieve you from everyday stress (every task for every goal is
managed by GTG. If GTG is empty, take a nap.)
2) Know what task you need to do now and here without missing
deadlines (narrow focus)
3) Know why you need to do tasks and ensure your are working toward
your goals (wide focus)
4) Encourage you to do what need to be done for important goals
(anti-procrastination)

I think that order is an order of importance.

First, GTG want to relieve you from stress by handling everything.
Second, GTG want to help you what to do now and not miss any deadline
Third, GTG want to ensure you are working towards your goals
Fourth, GTG want to encourage you to work and your goals and not
procrastinating.


The difference beween 3 and 4 is a bit subtle. 3 is about organization
and ensuring you don't loose yourself in useless tasks that are not
useful for your goals. 4 is to help you to accomplish the listed task.
For example, encouraging to use a verb in the title of the task is a
way to implement 4).

For 1), one very important point is that it should be braindead easy
to enter a new task, from multiple of source. Izidor did a Firefox
plugin to make a task from a webpage (Now, I think it could, by
default start the title of the task as "Read www.website.com" ). This
plugin should also work in Thunderbird. There should be a way to enter
tasks from your phone, etc.

One of the key point is: as soon as you think of something to do, it
is easier to enter it in GTG than to write it on a paper.


> 
> I think it's a really important goal! In many ways, it's even the
> most important one. Note that I'm not sure still that it's
> correctly stated. It should maybe say something about relieving
> one's stress/improving one's life in regard to the many stuff
> he/she has to do. Because, well, many tools actually allow people
> to keep track on their duties, but not every tools is made to
> actually make one's live better (Lotus Notes, anyone?) This may
> sound cheesy, but in the end the difference it can make for someone
> is important.
> 
> - GTG should educate people to organize themselves efficiently
> 
> IMHO, it's an anti-goal. It's not GTG's work. That could be done 
> through developers' blog posts or else, but it should not be done
> in GTG directly.

I agree. GTG should be a tool for people that know how to organize
themselves. There are plenty of books, plenty of methods.

If GTG can be used by organized people but some users manage to abuse
it and use it, for example, as a note keeper, that's not our problem.
People are not working toward their goal because they didn't take the
time to think about what their goal is ? That's not our problem. And
it is not the job of GTG to educate people about having objectives.

But it's GTG job to help people who have objectives and want to
achieve them.



> 
> - GTG should help people gather information about their task
> 
> IMHO it's also an anti-goal: it's not the goal of GTG to help
> people gather information about their project, but just help them
> to keep at hand the useful information that allows them to
> accomplish something.
> 

I agree. GTG should help people to keep all the informations related
to a task in a central place. That's why, ultimately, we want to be
able to attach files or mails to a task.

This is related to 4), anti procrastination: if "Write the report"
implies first to gather all the documents, you are more likely to
procrastinate. If all the documents are there, in your task
description, nothing can stop you to write the report.


> 
> Ok, that's all that I could gather right now. I'll probably post
> this list on the wiki.
> 
> Bertrand
> 
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Lionel Dricot <ploum@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote: Le 23/03/12 19:04, Bertrand Rousseau a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>> I understand your point of view, and I agree with most of it,
>>>> but I think the reasoning is incomplete.
>>>> 
>>>> You define a "correct" way of organizing oneself (task are
>>>> when all subtask are done), and an "abusive" way (parent
>>>> tasks are container for groups of seemingly related tasks).
>>>> 
>>>> I'm ok with that distinction. But you actually why the
>>>> "abusive" way of organizing yourself introduce some kind of
>>>> pervertion (either at the organization system level or in GTG
>>>> and GTG's UI).
>>>> 
>>>> Those elements are however essential to the discussion: is it
>>>> just wrong to organize yourself this way? (In which case GTG
>>>> could act as a promoter of a better way to organize,
>>>> therefore achieving a goal of improving one's life). Or is it
>>>> ok to organize yourself this way, but wrong to use GTG like
>>>> this? (Therefore actually deciding that GTG is not made for
>>>> the people preferring this organization scheme).
>>>> 
>>>> Depending on those, the stated goal of GTG and its potential
>>>> public would be different. This is something that must be
>>>> decided, and acted upon by carefully designing so that no
>>>> confusion is possible.
>>>> 
>>>> Bertrand
>>>> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I said "abuse" because it's not something that I
> envisionned when we started GTG. And, as I remember, you agreed
> with me at that point.
> 
> Now, at a very first glance, I believe that, yes GTG should promote
> a better way of organazing. We are talking about "tasks", not
> random notes.
> 
> As someone said on Twitter just now, a task usually start with a
> verb. If you cannot start the title with a verb, it's probably not
> a task.
> 
> 
> 1) I believe that tasks have, by essence, specificities and are
> not simply a bunch of notes.
> 
> 2) One of these specificity is that some tasks are required to be 
> completed before being able to work on another task. (this is the
> very essence of a GANTT diagram, for example).
> 
> 3) GTG should encourage its users to manage tasks and help users
> to displays only tasks that are useful in a specific context.
> 
> 4) displaying only tasks that can be achieved now is one of useful 
> filter (currently named "workview").
> 
> 
> Based on those 4 asumptions, I strongly believe that GTG should 
> promote this way of working as much as possible.
> 
> As I said, I don't think that it's "a personal way of working": it 
> depends of the situation and the same person might sometimes use
> GTG correctly, sometimes abuse it.
> 
> Also, it should be noted that it is easier to "abuse" GTG than to
> use it in what I call the correct way.
> 
> Last but not least, all the bad examples lead, sometimes very
> subtly, to non-logical behaviour and, by extension, to
> procrastination.
> 
> For example:
> 
> -> Firefox --> Download --> Install --> Configure extensions
> 
> 
> Means that, in the current workview, you see 3 tasks. Three of
> them being no "doable". Thus, it defeats the whole workview.
> 
> If we hade a "do it now" plugin, a plugin that choose randomly a
> task to do it now, it would not work either.
> 
> It means that you have to think about what you need to do. Thus,
> GTG becomes a simple "note manager" and doesn't take advantage of
> knowing we are talking about tasks, all the "task management"
> workload being on your brain, not GTG.
> 
> Last but not least, once the three subtasks are done, you will end 
> with "Firefox" in your list, not knowing what to do. It might even 
> stays in your list for a while because you don't remember exactly.
> 
> 
> There's also the "Kitchen" vs "call the plumber" problem. As I've
> read once on Stormy's blog, most of the time we procrastinate on
> tasks where we don't know exactly what to do. This is universal and
> in all books against procrastination (like GTD).
> 
> I believe that a good todo manager should try to fight 
> procrastination. Encouraging you to use a verb, displaying tasks
> in the way they should be achieved, all of that is useful and,
> IMHO, general, not a personal thing.
> 
> 
> All of that to say that we should not force people. If people want
> to abuse a software, that's fine. But we should make it easier to
> use the software in one way defined as "correct" by the developers
> and not caring about those who abuse.
> 
> I believe that a good software design starts with a strong idea on
> the concepts and on how to use them.
> 
> If we choose that what I call "abuse" is a perfectly valid use
> case and that we should cover all those use cases, in the end GTG
> will be only Tomboy with support for tags.
> 
> But I'm confident that the only reason why people, including me,
> abuse GTG is because it's easier and more intuitive. It's not
> related with a "personal workflow", only with the natural laziness
> of listing tasks in the order they come to your mind.
> 
> 
> Lionel
>> 
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> 
> 

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