kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks for stepping up Adam!

Wayne

On 7/30/2015 9:10 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> If anyone is interested, I could quickly spin up a nightly build series
> with these icons enabled.  Let me know.
> 
> Adam Wolf
> 
> On Jul 30, 2015 7:59 AM, "Johannes Maibaum" <jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> 
>     Good to know that Apple changed their minds once again…
> 
>     As I said, I do not mind them being enabled again. But perhaps it
>     might be a good idea for our icon designers to take a look at all
>     icons that are shown in the menus in order to see if they fulfill
>     the guideline Bernhard quoted. I think that this would be of value
>     for users on all platforms, not only OSX.
> 
>     I often fail to see the „significant value“ tiny icons add to text,
>     but as this might end up in a religious fight, and this is not what
>     I intend, I will stop arguing right now. I think I made my point
>     clear and, once again, I’m OK with any decision in this regard.
> 
> 
>     Best,
> 
>     Johannes
> 
>     > Am 30.07.2015 um 14:12 schrieb Collin Anderson
>     <metacollin@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:metacollin@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>:
>     >
>     > Thanks for the clear answers guys.  And based on Johannes
>     Malbaum's post, this is clearly not the 'right or wrong' issue I
>     mistakingly took it for, but may largely be mainly a personal
>     preference.  I find the icons very useful, but this is hardly
>     universal, and I'm sure other people find them distracting or
>     otherwise a nuisance as well.  I'd rather not force my icon-ist
>     beliefs on others, and I didn't realize isn't wasn't only an OS X issue.
>     >
>     > Perhaps a good solution would be to remove this as a build option
>     all together and simply make it an option within the programs
>     themselves (or just in the master kicad launcher).  I'm looking
>     through the code it would not appear that this needs to be a
>     build-time decision.
>     >
>     > Thoughts? Er, I'm volunteering to do this, but there are a few
>     ways to go about it, and could be done in a way that was apple
>     specific, or not.  At the barest level, I was considering an entry
>     in the ~/Library/kicad/kicad file, UseMenuIcons=(0 or 1).   This
>     would override whatever the default behavior is, but if the entry is
>     not present, then the default is observed.
>     >
>     > Interface-wise, I was thinking a simple menu item in the KiCad
>     preferences menu that can be checked or unchecked, would be
>     uninvasive enough and not disturb anything anywhere else. The change
>     would not be immediate, but require relaunching programs as needed.
>     >
>     > Those are just my initial rough thoughts, but I'd love to hear if
>     people are in general for or against the idea overall, and if not,
>     what they think of my proposed implementation.
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
>     >
>     >> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:33 AM, Nick Østergaard <oe.nick@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:oe.nick@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Yep, also note that the GTK people also tried to follow these OS X
>     >> guidelines, so I don't actually have icons on my desktop on
>     linux, GTK
>     >> forces it off in some configurations.  But I think they have also
>     >> realised that they are actually useful. So this is not only on OS X.
>     >>
>     >> I am too lazy to find some references on this for GTK, but if you are
>     >> interested you can ask google.
>     >>
>     >> 2015-07-30 13:28 GMT+02:00 Johannes Maibaum <jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx>>:
>     >>> Hello Collin,
>     >>>
>     >>> As far as I remember, menu icons are disabled on OSX in order to
>     conform
>     >>> with Apple's UI guidelines that favor text-only menus over
>     additional icons.
>     >>>
>     >>> So while there might be no technical issue with enabling icons
>     for OSX too
>     >>> (I know that it worked years ago, when they were enabled by
>     default), I
>     >>> think that the main reason for disabling them is the "native OSX
>     user" who
>     >>> is used to text-only menus from all other applications and might
>     find icons
>     >>> distractive.
>     >>>
>     >>> From my point of view, cross-platform should not mean "has to
>     look the same
>     >>> on all platforms", but rather "has to work on all supported
>     platforms, but
>     >>> not violate its standard UI policies".
>     >>>
>     >>> I understand that menu icons are a rather minor "violation" and
>     I would not
>     >>> mind if they were re-enabled. But if there is a definite
>     decision to make,
>     >>> my vote would go to not enabling them again. Personally, I find
>     icons in
>     >>> menus distractive, if recognizable at all at such small sizes, so I
>     >>> eventually always fall back to reading the text (this also holds
>     true for
>     >>> context menus, where icons are still enabled). Menu icons, for
>     me, are just
>     >>> visual clutter that take away screen space (I am often working
>     on a 13 inch
>     >>> MBP).
>     >>>
>     >>> Just my .02.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Best,
>     >>> Johannes
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
>     >>> Von: Collin Anderson
>     >>> Datum:30.07.2015 12:53 (GMT+01:00)
>     >>> An: KiCad Developers
>     >>> Betreff: [Kicad-developers] Can we enable menu icons on OS X?
>     >>>
>     >>> Can anyone explain why menu icons are enabled on all platforms
>     except OS X?
>     >>> I've looked through the menuhelper.h code and the CMake build
>     files, and all
>     >>> I can find is reference to it being disabled on OS X by default,
>     but the
>     >>> reason why is not given anywhere I can find.
>     >>>
>     >>> I've been using KiCad for months on OS X and I force the menu
>     icons on every
>     >>> time, and there are no issues.  They are very helpful from a usage
>     >>> standpoint and beyond that, it is the interface I'm used to when
>     I use KiCad
>     >>> in Debian, and my coworkers in in Windows.  It's both annoying and
>     >>> distressing to suddenly lose all those visual cues but only on
>     the OS X
>     >>> platform.  It would be understandable if there was some sort of
>     issue, or
>     >>> they didn't work right on OS X, but that's not the case.
>     >>>
>     >>> Regardless, as it stands now, KiCad's interface is not platform
>     agnostic,
>     >>> which is something that ought to be a priority for any software
>     claiming to
>     >>> be cross-platform.
>     >>>
>     >>> Can we simply comment out, or better, remove, the line in the root
>     >>> CMakeLists file that goes out of its way to disable menus, but
>     only if
>     >>> __APPLE__?  I'll even do it myself and make a merge quest, if
>     its simply a
>     >>> matter of no one having the time.
>     >>>
>     >>> I, like many users I suspect, find I rely on icons and visual
>     cues much more
>     >>> than actual text of menu and contextual menu items.  I have no
>     choice but to
>     >>> build KiCad (which takes a long time on my machine) if I want
>     the latest dev
>     >>> build in a usable (and truly cross platform) state.  I DO do his
>     regularly,
>     >>> but sometimes I do need it quick and it would be nice if I could
>     take
>     >>> advantage of Adam Wolf's generously provided nightly builds, but
>     since the
>     >>> default build settings disable menu icons, it largely becomes
>     time spent
>     >>> discovering how much I actually rely on the menu icons, rather
>     than spent on
>     >>> electronic design.
>     >>>
>     >>> If I've missed something, and there IS a good reason for
>     breaking KiCad's
>     >>> cross platform consistency, I'd love to know - I'll see if I can
>     fix the
>     >>> issue and file a merge proposal.  And if I can't I'll at least
>     add that
>     >>> reason in the comments around the relevant code, since it requires
>     >>> justification (in my humble opinion, anyway, for what little
>     that is worth
>     >>> ;)   )
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> --
>     >>> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
>     >>>
>     >>>
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>     >
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