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Message #19535
Re: Can we enable menu icons on OS X?
Thanks for stepping up Adam!
Wayne
On 7/30/2015 9:10 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> If anyone is interested, I could quickly spin up a nightly build series
> with these icons enabled. Let me know.
>
> Adam Wolf
>
> On Jul 30, 2015 7:59 AM, "Johannes Maibaum" <jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
> Good to know that Apple changed their minds once again…
>
> As I said, I do not mind them being enabled again. But perhaps it
> might be a good idea for our icon designers to take a look at all
> icons that are shown in the menus in order to see if they fulfill
> the guideline Bernhard quoted. I think that this would be of value
> for users on all platforms, not only OSX.
>
> I often fail to see the „significant value“ tiny icons add to text,
> but as this might end up in a religious fight, and this is not what
> I intend, I will stop arguing right now. I think I made my point
> clear and, once again, I’m OK with any decision in this regard.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Johannes
>
> > Am 30.07.2015 um 14:12 schrieb Collin Anderson
> <metacollin@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:metacollin@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>:
> >
> > Thanks for the clear answers guys. And based on Johannes
> Malbaum's post, this is clearly not the 'right or wrong' issue I
> mistakingly took it for, but may largely be mainly a personal
> preference. I find the icons very useful, but this is hardly
> universal, and I'm sure other people find them distracting or
> otherwise a nuisance as well. I'd rather not force my icon-ist
> beliefs on others, and I didn't realize isn't wasn't only an OS X issue.
> >
> > Perhaps a good solution would be to remove this as a build option
> all together and simply make it an option within the programs
> themselves (or just in the master kicad launcher). I'm looking
> through the code it would not appear that this needs to be a
> build-time decision.
> >
> > Thoughts? Er, I'm volunteering to do this, but there are a few
> ways to go about it, and could be done in a way that was apple
> specific, or not. At the barest level, I was considering an entry
> in the ~/Library/kicad/kicad file, UseMenuIcons=(0 or 1). This
> would override whatever the default behavior is, but if the entry is
> not present, then the default is observed.
> >
> > Interface-wise, I was thinking a simple menu item in the KiCad
> preferences menu that can be checked or unchecked, would be
> uninvasive enough and not disturb anything anywhere else. The change
> would not be immediate, but require relaunching programs as needed.
> >
> > Those are just my initial rough thoughts, but I'd love to hear if
> people are in general for or against the idea overall, and if not,
> what they think of my proposed implementation.
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
> >
> >> On Jul 30, 2015, at 5:33 AM, Nick Østergaard <oe.nick@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:oe.nick@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yep, also note that the GTK people also tried to follow these OS X
> >> guidelines, so I don't actually have icons on my desktop on
> linux, GTK
> >> forces it off in some configurations. But I think they have also
> >> realised that they are actually useful. So this is not only on OS X.
> >>
> >> I am too lazy to find some references on this for GTK, but if you are
> >> interested you can ask google.
> >>
> >> 2015-07-30 13:28 GMT+02:00 Johannes Maibaum <jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jmaibaum@xxxxxxxxx>>:
> >>> Hello Collin,
> >>>
> >>> As far as I remember, menu icons are disabled on OSX in order to
> conform
> >>> with Apple's UI guidelines that favor text-only menus over
> additional icons.
> >>>
> >>> So while there might be no technical issue with enabling icons
> for OSX too
> >>> (I know that it worked years ago, when they were enabled by
> default), I
> >>> think that the main reason for disabling them is the "native OSX
> user" who
> >>> is used to text-only menus from all other applications and might
> find icons
> >>> distractive.
> >>>
> >>> From my point of view, cross-platform should not mean "has to
> look the same
> >>> on all platforms", but rather "has to work on all supported
> platforms, but
> >>> not violate its standard UI policies".
> >>>
> >>> I understand that menu icons are a rather minor "violation" and
> I would not
> >>> mind if they were re-enabled. But if there is a definite
> decision to make,
> >>> my vote would go to not enabling them again. Personally, I find
> icons in
> >>> menus distractive, if recognizable at all at such small sizes, so I
> >>> eventually always fall back to reading the text (this also holds
> true for
> >>> context menus, where icons are still enabled). Menu icons, for
> me, are just
> >>> visual clutter that take away screen space (I am often working
> on a 13 inch
> >>> MBP).
> >>>
> >>> Just my .02.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Johannes
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Von Samsung Mobile gesendet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> >>> Von: Collin Anderson
> >>> Datum:30.07.2015 12:53 (GMT+01:00)
> >>> An: KiCad Developers
> >>> Betreff: [Kicad-developers] Can we enable menu icons on OS X?
> >>>
> >>> Can anyone explain why menu icons are enabled on all platforms
> except OS X?
> >>> I've looked through the menuhelper.h code and the CMake build
> files, and all
> >>> I can find is reference to it being disabled on OS X by default,
> but the
> >>> reason why is not given anywhere I can find.
> >>>
> >>> I've been using KiCad for months on OS X and I force the menu
> icons on every
> >>> time, and there are no issues. They are very helpful from a usage
> >>> standpoint and beyond that, it is the interface I'm used to when
> I use KiCad
> >>> in Debian, and my coworkers in in Windows. It's both annoying and
> >>> distressing to suddenly lose all those visual cues but only on
> the OS X
> >>> platform. It would be understandable if there was some sort of
> issue, or
> >>> they didn't work right on OS X, but that's not the case.
> >>>
> >>> Regardless, as it stands now, KiCad's interface is not platform
> agnostic,
> >>> which is something that ought to be a priority for any software
> claiming to
> >>> be cross-platform.
> >>>
> >>> Can we simply comment out, or better, remove, the line in the root
> >>> CMakeLists file that goes out of its way to disable menus, but
> only if
> >>> __APPLE__? I'll even do it myself and make a merge quest, if
> its simply a
> >>> matter of no one having the time.
> >>>
> >>> I, like many users I suspect, find I rely on icons and visual
> cues much more
> >>> than actual text of menu and contextual menu items. I have no
> choice but to
> >>> build KiCad (which takes a long time on my machine) if I want
> the latest dev
> >>> build in a usable (and truly cross platform) state. I DO do his
> regularly,
> >>> but sometimes I do need it quick and it would be nice if I could
> take
> >>> advantage of Adam Wolf's generously provided nightly builds, but
> since the
> >>> default build settings disable menu icons, it largely becomes
> time spent
> >>> discovering how much I actually rely on the menu icons, rather
> than spent on
> >>> electronic design.
> >>>
> >>> If I've missed something, and there IS a good reason for
> breaking KiCad's
> >>> cross platform consistency, I'd love to know - I'll see if I can
> fix the
> >>> issue and file a merge proposal. And if I can't I'll at least
> add that
> >>> reason in the comments around the relevant code, since it requires
> >>> justification (in my humble opinion, anyway, for what little
> that is worth
> >>> ;) )
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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> >>>
> >
> >
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