kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[André S. <list.dev.kicad@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Ok, I see your point regarding not breaking old designs.

However: the current KiCad broke mine, since it does regard hidden pins 
different than "the old KiCad" (around 2013).
The old KiCad connected a visible "hidden pin" only to the connected net.
The current KiCad still connects it to "VDD" regardless of the connected 
net and therefore connects two different named nets. Which then forbids 
the use of "VDD" for a power net, when you use a KiCad library part with 
hidden pins in your design and connect its power pin to a no-"VDD" net.

BUT if I did "the right thing" right from start, KiCad would have warned 
me, that I connected two "power nets". Which it does when I place a 
"power flag" on each net. (Which is one way where KiCad forces its "true 
way" where other tools have the "power flag" built into the power net 
symbols.)

I learned my lesson on this one: do not use KiCad library parts, create 
your own.

Regarding multiple names on (not power) nets.
There was a discussion some time ago. If I remember correctly, most 
people that use that feature would be OK with net-aliases (which is what 
they use that feature for) and having a fixed name on that net.
Currently when a net has a name and you add a new label it may occur 
that KiCad uses the new label name for the net. In the PCB the trace 
then gets a new name, which may not be what the user intended.
Also with the current implementation you may accidentally connect two 
nets and have _no_ way to check this with ERC.

My proposal on this is:
Newer KiCad versions can check for multiple names on a net and raise an 
error/warning when it sees one.
Therefore the user has a way to see accidentally connected nets.
Regarding not breaking old designs:
One way:
KiCad will need a dialog window where the user can add aliases to the 
net to keep current functionality.
This dialog  may be accessible from the ERC report window to give the 
user a way to do it the "right way".
Net aliases are then handled like net labels but do not (re)define the 
name of the net in the netlist.
OR second way:
The user ignores the error/warning and works as before.

  André

On 06.02.2016 16:52, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> I would not have allowed that to be implemented.  One thing I try to
> avoid is forcing users down the "one true way" path of pcb design
> whenever possible.  I prefer to give users the flexibility to design as
> they see fit even if it means that kicad has a steeper learning curve.
> I don't pretend to be wise enough to know what the "one true way" is and
> I really don't like someone else forcing it upon me so it would be
> hypocritical of me to force it upon someone else.  If you are
> comfortable with hidden pins, use them.  If not, don't.
>
> On 2/6/2016 9:59 AM, Thor-Arne wrote:
> > I agree with Chris on the hidden pins issue, old design should not be
> > broken.
> That is also a no-no for the project.  One of the goals of kicad is to
> make every effort to maintain backwards compatibility.
>
> > When it comes to net names I think they should be forced to be unique.
> >
> > Anyway, are we going to collect features requests now?
> > Would it be better to have a wanted-feauture list on github instead of
> > the mail list so nothing gets lost?
> Take a look at the release 5 (current development cycle) road map.
> Maybe we can add it to one of the existing tasks where it makes sense.
> Please keep in mind, we cannot endlessly add tasks to the release 5 road
> map.  We need to be realistic about what we can achieve given our
> current manpower.  I can always add new tasks to the global road map for
> future dev cycles.
>
> > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Pavlina
> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 3:30 PM
> > To: André S.
> > Cc: KiCad Developers
> > Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] Discussion: Hidden Pins, Net labels
> >
> > Eh. I agree 100% about hidden pins being Bad, anyone using them surely
> > should
> > be tarred and feathered. But I'm not sure it's our place to enforce good
> > schematic drawing practices. If people want to use KiCad to draw terrible,
> > horrible schematics, they'll find a way. Personally, I'm *strongly* against
> > breaking old projects, the feature should be kept around at least as a
> > legacy
> > support feature for old projects that are imported.
> >
> > I just don't use hidden pins, they're strictly forbidden in my libs and
> > I would
> > never use them for anything other than implementing power symbols.
> >
> > On the fence about net names.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 06, 2016 at 03:22:04PM +0100, André S. wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > this issues are still on my wishlist for KiCad:
> > > - Ban hidden Pins.
> > > - Disallow multiple labels on the same net.
> > > Especially the combination of those two is a source for non-obvious
> > > design
> > > bugs.
> > >
> > > Wayne recently stated that now the planning for release 5 has started,
> > > so I
> > > just thought I bring it up again.
> > >
> > > I wrote a blog entry why I think those two topics should be addressed,
> > > you
> > > can find it here (warning: wall of text ahead ;)):
> > > http://transistorgrab.de/2016/02/05/why-hidden-pins-are-evil-and-nets-should-only-have-one-name/
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm really interested that at least there is a definite conclusion for
> > > KiCad
> > > and that this conclusion is then put somewhere obvious in the
> > > documentation
> > > with all the pitfalls that come with that features and how to avoid them.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for anyone taking part in the discussion. :)
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >    André
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to     : kicad-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp