Re: [Ayatana] Getting rolling for 9.10

["Scott Kitterman" <ubuntu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 00:27 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> > On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 17:48 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> >> So to get things started, I'd like to suggest Messaging Menu
>> integrated
>> >> into
>> >> the systray via the new protocol as an Ayatana objective for Karmic.
>> To
>> >> assist in this effort, another community developer (I'll thank him by
>> >> name
>> >> after it works) is working on getting KDE trunk (the to be 4.3)
>> running
>> >> on
>> >> Jaunty via Project Neon.  That should provide a reasonably stable
>> basis
>> >> for
>> >> Ayatana developers to work with.
>> >
>> > I think that this isn't a good idea for the messaging indicator.  The
>> > principle reason for that is that the spec only deals with the icon
>> not
>> > the menu part of the indicator.  If we took the current indicator,
>> > ported it to this spec, and then displayed it in KPanel -- the menu
>> > would still be a GTK+ menu.  Which is going to look... okay, but not
>> > really that great.
>>
>> I missed the part where I said I thought you should reuse the current
>> GTK+
>> indicator in KDE.  Please don't put words in my mouth. (Thanks Celeste)
>
> Hmm, I guess considering the first I saw of this protocol was on the XDG
> list I assumed that you were interested in it for the cross-desktop
> usage, and thus one application to run in both desktop environments.
> I'm skeptical of why one would want to go through a level of GUI
> indirection if you were going to write two versions anyway.

Well the first I saw of this was on planet.kde as a new feature in KDE
4.3, the cross platform implications of the new protocol are secondary
from my perspective as a Kubuntu developer.

Part of the reason to use this approach is (honestly) political.  The only
public reaction to this notifications initiative that I've seen from
upstream KDE developers has not been very positive.  Here is a new
protocol that they are actively soliciting third party developers to
experiment with and use so that it can be solidified for KDE 4.4.  I think
this is a good chance to establish a positive working relationship with
KDE upstream and influence it in a useful direction.

As a Kubuntu developer, if KDE and Ayatana can have a good relationship
and agree on how things should be done, then my life is a lot easier.  If
there are agreements in place already, it would be useful to understand
what they are to help frame this discussion.

>> The indicator needs to be on the taskbar.  Having it outside the
>> systray,
>> but on the taskbar is going to look unintegrated and be unpleasant (I
>> don't have a battery widget in my taskbar because in KDE 4.2 you can't
>> put
>> it in the systray and elsewhere is just too annoying and intrusive to
>> contemplate).
>
> I guess I feel that it would need to be in the systray if we wanted it
> to be consistent with other things in the systray.  But, correct me if
> I'm wrong, there are other things in the KDE panel besides the systray.
> It seems like we're more interested in being integrated with those.
> Which would mean a plasmoid, not a system tray item, correct?

There are other things in the task bar than the systray.  None of them
appear and disappear.  They are also larger and take up more horizontal
real estate and that's a real problem (at least for me).  I want fewer
items in the task bar and the ones I need, I want them to be small.

I do think you ought to consider if the disappearing is appropriate to
this environment.  Currently nothing on that taskbar disappears except due
to user action.  If services get started they appear (like the first time
the wallet is opened), but generally things are pretty stable.  I would
find changing that highly distracting.

My belief is that if you put it in the systray and have it consistently
present when running, it will look very native and feel comfortable for
KDE users.  If you put it elsewhere, it will look bolted on.

Scott K

> That all being said, we did implement it as an applet on GNOME, and that
> hasn't been completely wonderful.  The problem is that the nature of the
> messaging indicator is that it disappears when not in use (which is also
> on the table for discussion) and that behavior makes it feel like a
> systray item.  So it does feel a little out of place not being in the
> systray there.
>
> 		--Ted
>
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