Re: [Ayatana] Killing Menu Bars

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Luke Morton <luke.morton@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 20:38 -0700, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
> Actually, I added a (extremely rough) mock up of what gcalc might look
> like. Basically, the most commonly used options ought to be
> (categorically) available the easiest.

I agree, although determining what's most commonly used is easier said
than done--it depends heavily on the user's habits and their particular
needs.

Agreed. Thats why I started with the calculator here, and with the already partially simplified Nautilus-Elementary.

> In a tool like a calculator that doesn't have a lot going on as far as
> options its pretty easy to put these on a row of mode or view buttons.
> everything else can be found in the 'gearbox' options menu. Roughly

> like so:Calculator_027.jpg

How would I access that with my keyboard?

> This translates very well in simple apps, and with more work, could
> work well for more complex apps as well.
> With the keyboard shortcuts, particularly the insert command,
> ironically enough I'm using chromium, which does not allow for that
> command.

The point of accessing the Insert menu (in Evolution) was to illustrate
the discoverability of a feature without having to know its accelerator
key ahead of time.

> Presumably we could still allow similar behavior for common key
> presses of that sort,

I would expect items in the toolbar to have accelerators--especially in
the absence of a menu. But how would I know what they were? And even if
they were standardised (say the cog icon is in your example is
accessible via Alt+S), how would I know what they were?

Pressing alt brings up hovering indicators perhaps? I don't disagree that these things ought to be discoverable, but honestly keyboard accessibility is nowhere near my strong suit, as I rarely use only the keyboard so I really don't know how to make it work and what doesn't.

> and honestly some of it will be taken care of by a clean shearing of
> commands that are used for actual action (i.e., in a file browser
> relate to actual browsing instead of slightly less needed interface
> editing like "reset view to defaults" or history clearing) and menu
> items which do not directly relate to the task at hand.

You lost me here. Are you making a case for well thought-out menus? If
so then yes, I agree menus should be well thought-out.

Um, yes. Well thought. :D. In the sense that chrome has "what I can do to this page" and "what I can do to the whole browser" as its two menus, then we would have "whats pertinent to the actions I am currently doing" and "what customizations to the nature of the program are available"

> Again, Chrome is really a great example of giving context menus which
> are very dependent on the area clicked, and two very sparse clean
> menus, with all non-essential interface controls tucked away.
> Accessible in 3 or less clicks, but away. In addition, this would
> hopefully lower the levels of total overlap going on.

None of the issues I raised pertain to clicking (using a pointing
device). But you are right about the Chromium menus being well
organised. And the use of context menus is good too.

Fair enough. :P

However, Chromium also highlights one of the issues I menioned: how do
you open one of those menus without a mouse? I'll save you some
frustration for the "Customise and Control Chromium" menu: it's Alt+F. I
know that from trial and error--guessing key combinations until a menu
popped up. I'm yet to figure out how to duplicate a tab.

You bring up good points, further illustrating to me that my idea as a whole is likely suitable as a modification, not as an attempt to alter vanilla ubuntu.

> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Luke Morton
> <luke.morton@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 18:47 -0700, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
> > I know, I know, we just had an announcement about changing
> menu's over
> > to global menu's for the UNE. But seriously, how necessary
> is 4 menus
> > in the calculator application "gcalctool"? The only menu
> options that
> > have anything to do with actual calculator options are under
> the view
> > menu. The rest is silly and redundant.
> >
> >
> > I just wrote a fairly long blog post on my blog here, along
> with
> > mockups and what not:
> >
> http://tjamesubuntu.blogspot.com/2010/05/re-thinking-desktop.html
> >
> >
> > about how silly most apps menu's are. I'm hoping that we can
> maybe
> > pool some resources on looking at what is and what isn't
> necessary in
> > default applications in Ubuntu, although I'm not under any
> impression
> > that this will be something to be put directly in default
> Ubuntu.
> > However, I do think it is the sort of mod that can gain
> traction
> > similar to Nautilus-Elementary if we can get applications
> repackaged
> > with cleaned up and optimized menus.
>
>
> "Cleaned up and optimised"; sounds like a good idea. How would
> you do
> that for the gcalctool menus? (They seem pretty good to me.)
>
> General comments:
> (Pertaining to the removal of menus and replacement with
> toolbar menus
> as mentioned in your blog post.)
>
> 1. Menus provide access to functions that might be otherwise
> obscured,
> infrequently used or hard to access--especially for people who
> cannot
> use pointing devices.
>
> For example, I can tell that if I want to insert something
> into this
> email I can press Alt+I to get the insert menu, even though
> I've never
> used it before. If that menu were represented by an icon in a
> toolbar,
> how would I get to it without having to tab through the entire
> interface?
>
> 2. Menus provide a convenient reference list of keyboard
> accelerators.
> If that menu were represented by an icon in a toolbar, how
> would I get
> to it without having to tab through the entire interface?
>
> Take gcalctool for example. If it didn't have a menu, and you
> couldn't
> use your mouse, how would you switch to a different mode? Quit
> the
> application? Input an ASCII character?
>
> 3. A menu by itself takes up less space than a toolbar by
> itself
>
> Removing the menu in gcalctool in the same way that
> Nautilus-Elementary
> removes the menu would mean that we'd have to add a toolbar
> for the
> functions that have no-where else to go. (I don't think this
> is
> particularly important though.)
> None of these are absolute barriers to your idea, but they are
> things
> that need to be considered/resolved.
>
>
>
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