openerp-community team mailing list archive

[Raphael Valyi <rvalyi@xxxxxxxxx>]

Guys,

this thread also remembers me our experiments and Sebastien's post about
how to handle multiple localizations in the same OpenERP. Again, the vision
of OpenERP SA here seems to be that from one day to another all the same
codebase will suddenly rule the world entirely (I say it because the
following was presented to them in person in Belgium last year and not
considered).
Our vision instead is that a global open source ERP is a DYNAMIC
CONSOLIDATION PROCESS. That is iterations are made (ideally in the right
direction) toward a converging ideal of a common codebase abstracted enough.

Meanwhile, we live in the reality of approximative localization being
consolidated the hard way real project after real project, real community
people after real community people.

That is, no golden code will rule them all at once yet for a good time.

That is we need mecanisms, that are able to load/unload methods overrides
and vision according to which the localization a company belongs (the
logged user uid in fact).

>From our experiments at Akretion to use the same ERP instance both in
France and Brazil, Sebastien Beau made these prototypes:
https://lists.launchpad.net/openerp-community/msg01720.html

So I would like this technical initiative not to be forgotten. And may be,
after these piece of abstraction get criticized and perfected, some
localization or hard accounting principle start depending (or at least
playing well) with these abstractions in order to make multi-localizations
and multi-accounting a reality.

NB: also ideally localization extract the maximum non specific concepts in
reusable project as we did with financial tools shared between Spanish and
Brazilian localization or with the tax rule framework used both in Brazil
and for international commerce.

Thank you folks an good luck with Storno accounting.


Raphaël Valyi
Founder and consultant
http://twitter.com/rvalyi <http://twitter.com/#!/rvalyi>
+55 21 2516 2954
www.akretion.com



On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Humberto Arocha <humbertoarocha@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> Hello, community people,
>
> Wonderful that community is aware of this accounting approach,
>
> everybody seems to solve the problem about accounting approach, as a
> matter of localization,
> And I think it is not just like that, Lets just point out this,
>
> Let us think there is a multinational company across all continents,
> and that multinational company decides to use OpenERP as a first class ERP
> Solution for there Enterprises operations.
>
> Their accounting people has come to realize that there are at three
> different
> accounting approaches, that are mandatory for them to use on each country
> where they have operations.
>
> Each national company decides to create a new company for each country,
>
> In Febrary Openerp Technical deploys Openerp, in France, French National
> Company,
> they were all happy, first company deploying Openerp and everything works
> great,
>
> In March 1st, GoLive, in Venezuela, Venezuelan National Company,
> They are all happy, second company using Openerp in a Multicompany
> environment,
>
> French guys begins to rise their eyebrows somethings is going wrong,
> accounting is begining to release mismatching numbers.
>
> Long story short.
>
> French guys are using, native accounting in openerp, Continental, Rhine,
> Normand Accounting.
> Venezuelan guys are using, anglo-saxon-accounting and that approach is
> colliding with
> the French Accounting approach,
>
> What I want to point out, and please, make corrections to my words,
> nobody has the intelligence monopoly, is that openerp is __not__ aware
> of the accounting approach on company basis, just on module installed
> basis.
>
> And that one is to my believes the biggest bug on Openerp Accounting
> Approach
>
> So if we are going to support a new accounting approach And OpenERP is
> going to keep claiming on the multicompany Compliance.
>
> This will end in just a big accounting mess!!!
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> 2013/4/8 Joël Grand-Guillaume <joel.grandguillaume@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> After reading you guys, I suggest to create a project called:
>>
>> storno-accounting
>>
>> That belong to the Account Core Editors team as suggested by Goran. This
>> project under the community responsibility will be in charge of
>> implementing this accounting concept in OpenERP in a common way for all
>> concerned localization.
>>
>> As all other projects, code will have to be review before landing there
>> for the good of all.
>>
>> Anybody is against that ?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Joël
>>
>>
>> @Nhomar : I agree with you on the basis, but like anglo-saxon accounting,
>> those principles are specific to certain law/country.. Even if not approved
>> here, OpenERP should provide a good support of those principles IMO. As
>> various country are concerned, making a community project for them seems a
>> good idea.
>>
>> @Goran : After looking at your code, the only main blocker I saw is the
>> postgres trigger that we tend to avoid in the OpenERP's module. Other stuff
>> are details and in any case, it'll be reviewed by the community reviewer.
>> Moreover, making it at company level is a good idea as several company may
>> belong to several country.
>>
>>
>> Le 8 avr. 2013 à 15:10, Goran Kliska <gkliska@xxxxxxxxx> a écrit :
>>
>> Storno setup at company level is good idea.
>> That can control default setup/visibility at journal level.
>> Thanks Eric.
>>
>>  lp
>> Goran Kliska
>> *Slobodni programi d.o.o.*
>> *Gorjanska 23, Zagreb*
>> *tel. +385 (1) 3095 113*
>> *fax. +385 (1) 3095 148 *
>> *mob. +385 91 2722 676*
>>
>>
>> 2013/4/8 Eric Caudal <eric.caudal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>>  Storno setup should be at company and journal level. Regarding SQL
>>> constraint removal, I am not sure about the impact but they will need to be
>>> replaced in the code since storno and non-storno companies could be
>>> coexisting in the same database.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Eric Caudal*CEO*
>>> --*Elico Corporation, Shanghai branchOpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner *
>>> Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670
>>> Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37
>>> Skype: elico.corperic.caudal@elico-corp.comhttp://www.elico-corp.com
>>>
>>> <elico_signature.jpg>
>>> On 04/08/2013 07:58 PM, Goran Kliska wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>  This is mostly about "peaceful co-existence" of localizations:
>>>   - common ancestor(s) for localizations in "storno accounting" part of
>>> the world
>>>   - ability to have one company "storno", another "contra" in same
>>> database
>>>
>>>  I am willing to invest my time maintaining a branch, best I can.
>>>
>>>  History of account_storno module:
>>>   - patching account module -> having private fork, worst possible idea
>>>   - l10n_hr_account_storno -> ok for local installations, but it
>>> will collide with other localizations
>>>   - account_storno -> common ancestor for l10n_hr..., l10n_ro..., don't
>>> know for others,
>>>      but I am sure that is needed in current form for Bosnia, Serbia,
>>> Montenegro, Macedonia.
>>>
>>>  @Nhomar
>>>  Some years ago I learned about "contra accounting" and I
>>> was surprised just as you are now with "storno".
>>> It is in every accounting book, high school class, law in this region.
>>> Recent example is "Fiscal Invoice Law"(SOAP) where we MUST have negative
>>> amounts.
>>> Contra accounting is forbidden by law in some countries, in some is
>>> optional, in some storno is forbidden.
>>>
>>>  "I am totally disagree about this approach."
>>>   Every accountant in the region totally disagree with contra approach.
>>>   Implementing ERP without accountant blessing == mission impossible
>>>
>>>  Let's say my example is from analytic accounting.
>>>  What is the meaning of sum(debit) & sum(credit) for A)Contra?
>>>  Just being curious and NOT pushing this analytic idea as community one
>>> - I'll do it in some other branch.
>>>
>>>  "I dont know how we can be affected with Storno"
>>> It is like account_anglo_saxon. Don't install if you don't need it.
>>>  For mixed installations
>>>    - replacement of SQL constraint is provided
>>>    - storno/contra is selectable on the Journal level
>>>
>>>  I don't' know about origin, is not that important.
>>> Maybe it is from Soviet USSR, maybe from Benedikt Kotruljević
>>> (Dubrovnik,Croatia) regarded as inventor of double-entry accounting
>>> and his work *Libro de l'Arte de la Mercatura* (*Book on the Art of
>>> Trade*) from 1458
>>>
>>>
>>>  BRGDS
>>> Goran Kliska
>>> *Slobodni programi d.o.o.*
>>>  *Gorjanska 23, Zagreb, Croatia*
>>>
>>>   2013/4/8 Nhomar Hernández <nhomar@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>>> Hello/
>>>>
>>>>  From my point of view, the global approach must be cosidered, but i
>>>> have one strong point in your example, comment in lines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   2013/4/8 Goran Kliska <gkliska@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>
>>>>>  Please support the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>>  We can't ignore Russia, China and whole East Europe and claim we
>>>>> have global ERP.
>>>>> Storno and red-storno are mandatory by the low in some countries.
>>>>> Imagine multi-company/multi-country implementation.
>>>>> As Croatia is entering EU we are getting more&more leads requiring
>>>>> multi-country.
>>>>> It is implemented in all ERPs pretending to be global or multi-country.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Another goal is to raise awareness in developer community because
>>>>> we are suffering when in the middle of a 200 lines method we have to
>>>>> deal with contra accounting assumption.
>>>>>
>>>>>  As Eric said, it really is in a category of anglo-saxon accounting.
>>>>> Let's start with community effort and hope it will lend in official
>>>>> addons some day.
>>>>>
>>>>>  There are some advantages in storno principle.
>>>>> One example (it could be for analytic accounting):
>>>>> 1. Cost 100€ Debit
>>>>> 2. Cost   50€ Debit
>>>>>  3. Cost  -50€ A) (+)Credit or B) (-)Debit  (late correction)
>>>>> 4. Revenue 200€ Credit
>>>>>
>>>>>  Balance is the same 100€, but
>>>>> A) with Contra approach  sum(Debit) = 150€ , sum(Credit) = 250€
>>>>>      - useless
>>>>> B) with Storno approach
>>>>>        sum(Debit) = 100€ = Total Costs
>>>>>        sum(Credit)= 200€ = Total Revenues
>>>>>
>>>>>  For Contra only one field is enough to express Debit&Credit with
>>>>> (+)&(-) sign.
>>>>> IMHO much better approach is to always have debit and credit fields
>>>>> that can be negative.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I am totally disagree about this approach.
>>>>
>>>>  We use in Vauxoo as reference this book:
>>>>
>>>>  www.principlesof*accounting*.com/
>>>>
>>>>  It is REALLY good, our utopic dream is that OpenERP support 100% over
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>>  Do you have some text book where the storno approach is documented
>>>> and where they say explicitly that you can have (-) Negative values in your
>>>> Journal Entries.
>>>>
>>>>  For me is difficult to believe, in my opinion, It is more a thing
>>>> regarding the old system are done in times where validate this were so
>>>> difficult .... Now with actual technilogies, i can not see reason to brake
>>>> intentionally _basic_ accounting principles.
>>>>
>>>>  A LOT of thing are more easy in accounting because we have very weel
>>>> controlled this issue, brake it can represent A LOT of more problem (we
>>>> solved them in V5.0 when this feature was allowed, and it represent to us
>>>> fix 1 year of accounting information) this is the reason because i need
>>>> introduce this comment here.
>>>>
>>>>  I dont know how we can be affected with Storno, but the First Step is
>>>> at least introduce where is the origin of the concept, it must be our
>>>> starting point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  Let's just start with legal requirements that in some countries
>>>>> refunds must be done
>>>>> with NEGATIVE quantities and amount.
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://forum.openerp.com/forum/topic27740.html
>>>>> https://answers.launchpad.net/openobject-addons/+question/123322
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  Best regards.
>>>>
>>>>>   lp
>>>>> Goran Kliska
>>>>> *Slobodni programi d.o.o.*
>>>>>  *Gorjanska 23, Zagreb*
>>>>> *tel. +385 (1) 3095 113*
>>>>> *fax. +385 (1) 3095 148 *
>>>>> *mob. +385 91 2722 676*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/4/8 Eric Caudal <eric.caudal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  China is using Storno accounting so we are interested in
>>>>>> participating.
>>>>>> This is a localization but so widely used that I would rather be in
>>>>>> favor of general feature (to be activated in the setting/accounting menu
>>>>>> like anglo-saxon accounting)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Eric Caudal*CEO*
>>>>>> --*Elico Corporation, Shanghai branchOpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner *
>>>>>> Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670
>>>>>> Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37
>>>>>> Skype: elico.corperic.caudal@elico-corp.comhttp://www.elico-corp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: Elico Corp]
>>>>>>  On 04/08/2013 03:22 PM, Joël Grand-Guillaume wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Dear Community,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Goran suggested to me that we should add a new project for "Storno"
>>>>>> accounting under the community reviewer responsibility. It seems to be
>>>>>> "best practice" accounting mostly used on eastern european country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The branch of his work is currently here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~gkliska/addons-
>>>>>> sp/slobodni_addons_61/files/head:/account_storno/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  It seems more related to a localization problematic from my point
>>>>>> of view. Since now, we mainly try to avoid that in our community branch,
>>>>>> focusing more on "general" feature. Localization are more handled by each
>>>>>> of us in our respective country. However, this seems to be used by quite
>>>>>> lots of country and may justify to land in our community branch...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  What is your opinion ? Who is in favor of including this as a new
>>>>>> project of the team "Account Core Editors" in the community branches ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Thanks for your feed-back,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Joël
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Début du message réexpédié :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  *De : *Goran Kliska <gkliska@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>  *Objet : **Storno accounting branch*
>>>>>>  *Date : *5 avril 2013 03:14:36 UTC+02:00
>>>>>>  *À : *Joël Grand-Guillaume @ camptocamp <
>>>>>> joel.grandguillaume@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>  *Répondre à : *Goran Kliska <gkliska@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Account Core Editors team admins,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please consider creating a new branch for storno accounting modules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Storno Accounting is  a business practice commonly used in Eastern
>>>>>> European countries.
>>>>>> Countries where Storno accounting is mandatory or considered as best
>>>>>> practice:
>>>>>>     Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Ukraine,
>>>>>> Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Latest 6.1 version is here:
>>>>>> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~gkliska/addons-
>>>>>> sp/slobodni_addons_61/files/head:/account_storno/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Goran Kliska
>>>>>> Slobodni programi d.o.o.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> This message was sent from Launchpad by
>>>>>> Goran Kliska (https://launchpad.net/~gkliska)
>>>>>> using the "Contact this team's admins" link on the Account Core
>>>>>> Editors team
>>>>>> page (https://launchpad.net/~account-core-editors).
>>>>>> For more information see
>>>>>> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ContactingPeople
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   *camptocamp*
>>>>>> INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS
>>>>>> BY OPEN SOURCE EXPERTS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  *Joël Grand-Guillaume*
>>>>>> Division Manager
>>>>>> Business Solutions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  +41 21 619 10 28
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> www.camptocamp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>>>> Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>>>> Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>>> Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> --------------------
>>>> Saludos Cordiales
>>>>
>>>> Nhomar G. Hernandez M.
>>>> +58-414-4110269
>>>> Skype: nhomar00
>>>> Web-Blog: http://geronimo.com.ve
>>>> Servicios IT: http://vauxoo.com
>>>> Linux-Counter: 467724
>>>> Correos:
>>>> nhomar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> nhomar@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>> twitter @nhomar
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>> Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Camptocamp
>> Innovative Solutions by Open Source Experts
>>
>> Joël Grand-Guillaume
>> Division Manager - Business Solutions
>>
>> www.camptocamp.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>> Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
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>>
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