openerp-community team mailing list archive

[Houssine BAKKALI <houssine.bakkali@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Peter,

Sorry if it was interpretred as an afront, I'm a bit sarcastic some times
but there is no offense from my side.

Just wanted to point what appears to be a U turn concerning the pricing.
We're leaving the affordable pricing and most of SMEs see first what the
product will cost out of box and then the added value. For SME of 20
peoples or for some countries paying this price without custom module has
nearly no added value.

Not sure that the discussion can possibly take the concerns of the partners
for a revision of the pricing from OpenERP SA.

Houssine

2014-05-20 10:49 GMT+02:00 Peter Langenberg <peter.langenberg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
:

> Houssine,
>
> If you are joking, please attach a picture so we can see the expression on
> your face while you tell it ...
>
> I was also a litle bit shocked about your reaction.
>
> I understand your concerns about the price, we should talk about it and
> I'm sure Fabien will listen to the concerns of the community and tell his
> point of view.
>
> Peter
>
>
> 2014-05-20 10:32 GMT+02:00 Houssine BAKKALI <houssine.bakkali@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
> Hery,
>>
>> It was just a joke ;) nevertheless i disagree with the new pricing.
>>
>> Just remember why Danone choose to implement OpenERP for emergent
>> countries, while they are running under
>>  SAP for the rest of their countries. The pricing was one of the key
>> criteria for choosing OpenERP.
>>
>> http://v6.openerp.com/node/887
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-05-20 5:04 GMT+02:00 OpenERP List <openerp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>
>>  Hi Houssine,
>>>
>>> I believe we all can agree to disagree, but nevertheless let's stay
>>> positive and be cordial.  I am hoping we can keep the discussion positive
>>> and constructive.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Hery
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/20/2014 03:36 AM, Houssine BAKKALI wrote:
>>>
>>> The thing I just figured out is that the weed brought by the venture
>>> capitalists was of a very high quality!
>>>
>>> You should at least share it with us! Cause we're not on the same trip!
>>> On May 19, 2014 7:30 PM, "Fabien Pinckaers" <fp@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05/19/2014 02:54 PM, TeMPO Consulting wrote:
>>>> > Hello Fabien
>>>> >
>>>> > after attending two webminars and reading all the mail related to
>>>> > pricing I still have two major questions
>>>> >
>>>> >  1. are the prices listed at https://www.odoo.com/page/pricingrelated
>>>> >     to the SaaS offer or to Odoo Enterprise, or both ?
>>>>
>>>> Both. We want to keep the same price/contract in order to not create
>>>> pricing competition between both. It also allows people to switch from
>>>> saas to on-premise without having to change their contracts.
>>>>
>>>> >  2. if they also apply to Odoo Enterprise what is the SLA provided by
>>>> >     the "Community Support" ?
>>>>
>>>> What do you mean by community support?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > many thanks for your reply.
>>>> >
>>>> > Maurice MORETTI
>>>> >
>>>> >>> Basic math for a client with 20 users and 5 apps for 24 months:
>>>> >>>   * 20 users x 5 apps x 24 months x $15 = $36,000
>>>> >>>   * Partner commission for 24 months (~50%)= $18,000
>>>> >> No, this is a common usecase:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Here is a typical use case (with old pricing), 40 users:
>>>> >>   - Public Price: $18720
>>>> >>   - Partner Price: $9360 (a ready partner)
>>>> >>   - Price sold to customer: $13.000
>>>> >>   - Implementation Cost:    $90.000
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Maintenance part of the TCO: 12.6%
>>>> >> Commission  part of the TCO:  3.5%
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Fabien Pinckaers <fp@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> >>> <mailto:fp@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Hi,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     I just wrote a blog to explain the new pricing:
>>>> >>>         https://www.odoo.com/blog/1/post/158
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Please read it before going further in this email.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     I'll try to answer most questions here:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     1/ How to compute the price?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     The price is: # total of users X # of apps bundle X 12€
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     2/ Why don't we charge according to real usage? (e.g.: 5 users
>>>> on CRM, 3
>>>> >>>     on accounting, 7 on projects?)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Because it's impossible to predict for yearly contracts!
>>>> Quoting would
>>>> >>>     become a nightmare and a lot of people would abuse from this
>>>> unclear
>>>> >>>     situation. (a customer would start with a low price but three
>>>> month
>>>> >>>     after we would have to upsell him because of the number of
>>>> users on some
>>>> >>>     apps)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Lets take the following use case: a company of 10 users that
>>>> uses CRM,
>>>> >>>     accounting, projects. They have 3 sales person, 4 consultants, 1
>>>> >>>     director, 1 secretary and 1 accountant.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     When you do a quote for this customer, how many users do they
>>>> have per
>>>> >>>     application?
>>>> >>>       - is the director using accounting and CRM?
>>>> >>>       - can the sales have read access to project for follow-ups to
>>>> their
>>>> >>>         customers?
>>>> >>>       - can the accounting check sales orders coming from the sales?
>>>> >>>       - is it the secreatary that give access rights to others
>>>> users?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     I checked in our production database. We have 7 persons working
>>>> in the
>>>> >>>     marketing department. If one do a quote of 7 users for the
>>>> marketing
>>>> >>>     application bundle, it's totally under-estimated.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     In reality, we have 45 users on marketing application, not 7:
>>>> >>>       - the Professional Service team that built the certification
>>>> sample
>>>> >>>         exam on the website (survey)
>>>> >>>       - users that train others users on features
>>>> >>>       - managers that need statistics about events, mass mailing,
>>>> ...
>>>> >>>       - most sales need an access to check prospects on events,
>>>> >>>       - system administrator need an access to allocate access
>>>> rights and
>>>> >>>         test for others users
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     3/ Is it expensive?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Absolutly not. It's 2x to 3x cheaper than the market average.
>>>> Check this
>>>> >>>     comparison of software vendors:
>>>> >>>       https://www.odoo.com/website/image/ir.attachment/537400/datas
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Moreover, partners get 50% to 60% discount on the public price.
>>>> It means
>>>> >>>     gold partners pay only 4.8€ / $6 per user and per application.
>>>> Whatever
>>>> >>>     the market, it's super cheap and super competitive.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     4/ Is it an increase of the price?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     For some customers: no. (1-3 apps)
>>>> >>>     For some customers: yes.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     The biggest increase would be around 2x more for one particular
>>>> customer
>>>> >>>     that uses a lot of applications. (6) I never saw a company
>>>> running 10
>>>> >>>     apps and if they do, it's normal that they pay 120€ per user
>>>> because the
>>>> >>>     value they get from Odoo is huge. No other product can offer
>>>> this.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     5/ localization & customization
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Odoo has a lot of huge advantages compared to traditional ERPs:
>>>> >>>       - higher scope: website, ecommerce, cubes analysis, CRM, ...
>>>> >>>       - better usability, faster implementation
>>>> >>>       - better flexibility: allows custom development and high
>>>> level config
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Odoo also has a few disadvantages compared to traditional ERPs,
>>>> the main
>>>> >>>     one is the localization in some countries. (something we will
>>>> fix for v9
>>>> >>>     as we will massively invest in accounting l18n)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Odoo has a lot of PROS and a few CONs. But the few CONs are
>>>> largely
>>>> >>>     compensated by the PROs. As the product is better, economics
>>>> tell us
>>>> >>>     that the product must be more expensive.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Not only we are not more expensive, but we are at least 2x to 3x
>>>> >>>     cheaper. And, if you take the partner price 4.8€ per user and
>>>> per app,
>>>> >>>     we are 6x cheaper than the competition!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     I do not know a lot of industry where a product can be 2X
>>>> cheaper for a
>>>> >>>     better quality.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     One should not be frustrated about the price.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     @marcelo
>>>> >>>     > I recently read the posts by the Compiere founder explaining
>>>> what
>>>> >>>     > went wrong after he got VC money. Read it and it will look
>>>> like it is
>>>> >>>     > all happening again.
>>>> >>>     Every time we do a change in the community people cry: take
>>>> care of
>>>> >>>     forks, read Jorge's blog, VCs are evil, OpenERP does not
>>>> understand its
>>>> >>>     users...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Odoo is not comparable to Compiere/Tryton/Openbravo or others.
>>>> The
>>>> >>>     sustainability of a product is not related at all with fork
>>>> threats,
>>>> >>>     failure of others open source software or what ever.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     The sustainability of every product is directly linked to it's
>>>> ability
>>>> >>>     to create a sustainable model where partners and publishers get
>>>> enough
>>>> >>>     revenues to grow their activities on the product.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     This requires a lot of things like: having a great product
>>>> allowing good
>>>> >>>     service margins, a good price for the publisher, happy
>>>> customers, etc.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     >      What kind of business puts potential clients in front of
>>>> active
>>>> >>>     > paying clients? The model is wrong wrong wrong.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     What's wrong is to have a pricing so cheap that it does not
>>>> allow to
>>>> >>>     sustain the development of the product, or too few customers
>>>> because the
>>>> >>>     product is not competitive. That's what killed some products.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     >       If Odoo was a ready-to-use software then the model
>>>> would make a
>>>> >>>     > lot of sense. But they are ignoring the importance of
>>>> localization &
>>>> >>>     > customization. If I wanted off the shelf software I wouldn't
>>>> bother
>>>> >>>     > going open source.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Our customers don't choose Odoo beause it's open source. They
>>>> choose
>>>> >>>     Odoo because it's better (products and/or servives of partners)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     We should stop being frustrated of being open source. It's not
>>>> because
>>>> >>>     we are open source that we should be cheaper. The only thing
>>>> that
>>>> >>>     matters for a customer is to have a great product at an
>>>> affordable
>>>> >>>     price.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Open Source is not a customer value, it's a way to develop
>>>> better
>>>> >>>     products.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     >             Also, this thing that partners will not get any
>>>> commission
>>>> >>>     >         on contracts with more than two years is REALLY
>>>> nonsense. It
>>>> >>>     >         essentially means that the contract will become 50%
>>>> more
>>>> >>>     >         expensive on the 3rd year because the partner will
>>>> need that
>>>> >>>     >         revenue back and of course it will be important for
>>>> the client
>>>> >>>     >         to keep bonds with the partner. It is really sad when
>>>> >>>     companies
>>>> >>>     >         pull this sort of crap on their "partners".
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     My understanding is that partners don't sell Odoo Enterprise
>>>> because of
>>>> >>>     their commissions. They sell it because they need it for their
>>>> customers
>>>> >>>     and because this allows them to sell more services. (and this
>>>> is how it
>>>> >>>     should be)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     The part of the commission on Odoo Enterprise is usually lower
>>>> than 4%
>>>> >>>     of the revenue a partner take on a project. So, their
>>>> motivation is not
>>>> >>>     on the commission.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     I may be wrong. I am open to discuss this during the community
>>>> days.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Hope it helps better understanding this strategic move,
>>>> >>>     Thanks for the feedback,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     --
>>>> >>>     Fabien Pinckaers
>>>> >>>     Odoo Founder
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Phone: +32.81.81.37.00 <tel:%2B32.81.81.37.00>
>>>> >>>     Web: https://www.odoo.com
>>>> >>>     Twitter: @fpopenerp
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>     Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>> >>>     Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> >>>     <mailto:openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >>>     Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>> >>>     More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Très cordialement
>>>> >
>>>> > Maurice MORETTI
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> _________________________________________________________________________
>>>> > TeMPO CONSULTING 20, avenue de la Paix 67000 Strasbourg FRANCE
>>>> >
>>>> > Web   : http://www.tempo-consulting.fr
>>>> > email : mm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> >
>>>> > Tel      : 33 (0)3 88 56 82 10
>>>> > Fax      : 33 (0)3 88 56 46 64
>>>> > Mobile   : 33 (0)6 08 61 85 02
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>> > Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
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>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Fabien Pinckaers
>>>> Odoo Founder
>>>>
>>>> Phone: +32.81.81.37.00
>>>> Web: https://www.odoo.com
>>>> Twitter: @fpodoo
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>> Post to     : openerp-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community
>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>