openerp-expert-framework team mailing list archive

[Nicolas Bessi <nicolas.bessi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hello, 

The debate was already made, and I think it is not useful to do it again.
The conclusion is clear BDD is a must have for OpenERP, and we will have two system, that will have different orientation advantage and disadvantage (The two approaches will be presented in the community days). 

My point here is stop loosing energy to do vain comparisons, but invest it on providing the best test suite possible. We all have the same focus, and do our business on the same product. 

I will provide tests for each solutions, depending of the situation and functionality. 

What I'm waiting for Tiny/OpenERP SA is to propose of complete documentation on how to write test, organize them, how to do testing that is cross feature and module or configuration dependent, how doing test factorization, 
in short professional testing guidelines.  Because YAML or XML it doesnt matter. The main reason we do not provide test as because we didn't know how to do it.


Regards 

Nicolas. 



Le 23 févr. 2010 à 12:35, Fabien Pinckaers a écrit :

> Joël,
> 
> I hope you don't take this as a personal attack. We like and merge C2C
> proposals and we do really appreciate your work and it's clear that
> OpenERP scenario is great value add to OpenERP.
> 
> I will explain the reason why we are evaluating a second option (which
> do not intend to replace OpenERP scenario but provide an alternative;
> people will be able to chose). I also think that both options can
> complement each other.
> 
> Here are the reasons:
> 1. Like documentations, we think that the tests must be integrated in
> the OpenERP modules and not as separate scripts. It's important that
> every database installation or migration launches the whole test suite.
> 
> 2. We don't want people to have to learn new languages and/or new
> libraries to be able to to test cases. We also need to keep clean
> dependencies against libraries used by OpenERP. (to keep things simple)
> 
> 3. We think that test scenaris may be written/recorded by non
> developers. (without having to do some development) I know some may
> argue that this is the case with OEScenario but it is not. I tries some
> tests, and nearly all scenario I wanted to do required me to develop
> simple things in ruby.
> 
> 4. For a Python software, we can difficultly rely on tests writen in
> ruby. It's a too big entry barrier for OpenERP new comers.
> 
> I am not telling that we want to replace OEScenario. We like it, and it
> already helped a lot. But we think we also need an other alternative for
> the reason above. So, please, you should accept that we evaluate several
> options before choosing the right one.
> 
> 
>> I agree with you, I prefer OpenERP SA to spend more time improving the
>> framework and refactoring the code rather than coding a 
>> concurrent to a ready-to-use community project. 
> 
> That's exactly what we want to do and that's probably the most important
> point ! And the reason why we wanted to write a yaml version.
> 
> We are reviewing lots of parts of the framework. The XML files is
> clearly something that made us loss lots of time when developing new
> modules.
> 
> XML files are quite heavy and the code that parses XML file have to be
> rewritten from scratch (check tools/convert.py). So, yes, if we chosed
> to analyse this option, that's because we think the OpenERP framework
> need to support yaml, and the XML parser have to be rewritten.
> 
> So, we spend more time by improving the framework.
> 
> Let just me remind you that OpenERP already has a scenario/test system
> integrated in the XML files (with assert, ...). So we are not
> developping a new engine, but just improving the way you can load data
> files for modules.
> 
> Adding a yaml parser is only 50 lines of code more to the XML parser.
> So, we are clearly not reinventing the wheel, we are cleaning our code
> and add 50 lines of python to support yaml and XML formats.
> 
> It's a great addition to OpenERP and I am sure everyone will be happy to
> write data files in yaml instead of XML. (with 50 lines more, our module
> recorder creates yaml files instead of XML ones, so we also have to
> automated creation of test cases). And, if these demo data can sustain
> the scenario system, it's very good too. Especially because we don't
> have to develop new things.
> 
> OpenERP developers will not have to learn new things, because the yaml
> tool we propose is exactly the same than the .XML files in modules. No
> new things to learn.
> 
> So, we are not creating a completly new test system, we just improve the
> existing one by support yaml. If you put that in perspective:
> 
> 1. We developed a test engine in OpenERP
> (clearly not easy to use due to XML)
> 2. C2C decided to not use it and write a completly other one
> (for good reasons)
> 3. We think that, by cleaning the framework, we can do a as good one
> and that it will be better integrated in easier in OpenERP.
> (for good reasons too)
> 
> Having two options is better than nothing:
> - C2C's solution is good to test from external scripts
> - OpenERP is good to test within modules and package in OpenERP
> It does not seems to be a problem for myself: we will continue to
> advertise both and each one will be able to use the one it prefers.
> Open source is all about freedom: you can not argue against this, I think.
> 
>> Unfortunately, this is not the first time... I hope this time, they will
>> admit and recognize our work. In a ideal world, I would even
>> dream about OpenERP SA supporting our project as the official Testing
>> system....
> 
> Joël, we recognize your work ! We like it and communicate on it. But you
> should understand that we need:
> 1. A yaml parser for data files, instead of the current XML one
> 2. Something integrated in OpenERP modules, so that everyone can launch
> the tests and every installation/migration. Tests should be based on
> demo data. -> no need to write both.
> 3. OpenERP (which is in Python) can not rely on ruby and his libs
> 4. Tests must be writeable by non developers.
> 
> 
>>> So, I desperately call you to give OERPScenario (Cucumber) a shot
>>> because no matter the efforts you are willing to waste, you will not
>>> come close, as explained in this presentation. So, I rather suggest
>>> you picks up that incredible tool CampToCamp made and use it and
>>> rather use your remaining time refactoring the core of OpenERP for
>>> less bugs, rather than trying to make a clone that will fail to be as
>>> powerful. Note that in OERPScenario, you will only use Cucumber,
>>> meaning that even if you would consider valid the critics against
>>> Ruby, they just wouldn't apply as you don't have to write Ruby
>>> code yourself past using the Cucumber/OERPScenario.
> 
> Of course we do it. Olivier is testing OERPScenario and will provide a
> feedback soon.
> 
> The best way to evaluate is to compare a test case. Let me know if I am
> wrong, but as far as I understood, if I want to create this test:
> 
> - create a partner "Demour SA" with two contacts "Luc" and "Marc"
> - check that the credit of the partner==0
> - change the name of the partner to "Demour sa"
> - test that the new name is "Demour sa"
> 
> With OEScenario, you have to create these files:
> - http://piratepad.net/lPd4U1XdpS
> (todo by Olivier)
> 
> With Yaml OpenERP, I create this file in a module:
> - http://piratepad.net/mATgKAXiac
> 
> 
> Note that OpenERP Yaml is only for the trunk, for the V5.0 version of
> OpenERP, I suggest to use OERPScenario (or the normal test system in XML
> modules)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fabien Pinckaers
> CEO Tiny - OpenERP Editor
> Chaussée de Namur 40
> B-1367 Grand-Rosière
> Belgium
> Phone: +32.81.81.37.00
> Fax: +32.81.73.35.01
> Web: http://openerp.com
> 
> Great Achievements Start With Tiny Investments
> -- Marty, 2005
> 
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Camptocamp SA
Senior ERP consultant 
Nicolas Bessi 
PSE A
CH-1015 Lausanne
http://www.camptocamp.com
http:/www.openerp.com 

+41 21 619 10 26 (direct)
+41 21 619 10 10 (centrale)
+41 21 619 10 00 (fax)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
Camptocamp SA
Senior ERP consultant 
Nicolas Bessi 
PSE A
CH-1015 Lausanne
http://www.camptocamp.com
http:/www.openerp.com 

+41 21 619 10 26 (direct)
+41 21 619 10 10 (centrale)
+41 21 619 10 00 (fax)
--------------------------------------------------------------------