openstack team mailing list archive

[Lorin Hochstein <lorin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Just to add to what Naryan said, I think that unless the developers experience the pain points of a production-style deployment, they generally aren't going to be aware of what these pain points are. We need to both:

- Make it easy as possible for developers to get up and running so they can make changes 
- Make developers aware what doing a "real" deployment is like so they can fix usability issues, documentation gaps, etc.


Take care,

Lorin
--
Lorin Hochstein
Lead Architect - Cloud Services
Nimbis Services, Inc.
www.nimbisservices.com


On Mar 21, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Ghe Rivero wrote:

> Narayan, I completely agree with you. Developers are our "first line of defense", but they are not the only one. I would love to have different environments (development, SMB deployments, large scale deployments), where all of them have the same behavior, but i'm afraid there is already a long road that needs time. We will work on it and try to avoid problem like the one's you are facing from transitions from one release to another.
> Ghe Rivero
> 
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Narayan Desai <narayan.desai@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ghe, while you're right that these two workloads are different, deployers need developers to use a representative environment during development, or the code doesn't work when it hits real deployments. We've now been bitten during our initial deployment of cactus, our upgrade to diablo, and our recent tests preparing for the essex upgrade because we can't run our management infrastructure on a single system. 
> 
> During cactus, we had issues when we tried to run multiple nova-network servers distinctly from the api service. IIRC during the diablo release, we had issues with keystone and horizon. This time, we had issues with glance/keystone integration. I'm not saying that things haven't improved, it just seems that each release has a new issue caused by the assumption that all services will be running on the same host. 
> 
> As we get more users with large deployments, these sorts of issues will only become a bigger deal, and will hinder large scale adoption. 
>  -nld
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 3:26 AM, Ghe Rivero <ghe.rivero@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi,
>     we are facing two differents problems here. We have developers and final users, and both of them with different expectations about what to get from OpenStack. Developers wants an easy way to test "untested" code, new cool-probably-broken features and be able to change immediately - devstack is the perfect tool for this . On the other hand, final users just want a working easy to deploy system, without care if the latest cool-probably-broken feature is included (I bet they prefer it to not be). But the truth is that OpenStack can't ignore any of them. Nobody will use a program which is hard to install, deploy, test or develop on it. Some consensus will be necessary in the user side (I think we all agree that development is ok with devstack) As Justin pointed before,  http://summit.openstack.org/sessions/view/26, can be a good starting point, defining a common set of minimums that every package should comply with (file/dir locations and perms, minimal contents of config files, users created, python external modules requiriments/ minimal versions, ...), so when someone complaint about something, we know that the installation has some minimal standards that it follows (just a quick idea that just came to my mind to help debugging users installations,  a simple script, that use paste.openstack.org, and post there the config files, daemons runnings, last lines of some logs, version of pkgs installed...)
> 
> Ghe Rivero
> 
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Joshua Harlow <harlowja@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Another idea:
> 
> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-developer-tools/spectacle
> 
> That python code seems to be able to take a yaml defintion and generate either rpm specfiles or debian pkg files.
> 
> It might be forked or extended (or both) and used to generate the initial set of package definitions for openstack in a non-pkg specific format...
> 
> 
> On 3/20/12 11:01 AM, "Justin Santa Barbara" <justin@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> I think devstack has done a lot for the developer's use-case, but I believe we should also have a official / semi-official project that does some sort of packaging to help the production use-case.  I've proposed a summit discussion: http://summit.openstack.org/sessions/view/26
> 
> The background: I want a semi-production deployment, but as a developer I still want to be able to edit the code (which makes packages inconvenient).  devstack is orientated towards e.g. wiping the databases. 
> 
> I'm hoping that all the various OS packagers can work together, or at least tell us what sucks.  As a community, we should solve these problems once, and the OpenStack project shouldn't treat them as externalities.  I've been doing some initial coding here:
> https://github.com/justinsb/openstack-simple-config
> 
> The first use case I'm trying to solve is "single node installation of OpenStack" that is as easy as possible, but also isn't painting the user into the corner.  Think "apt-get openstack", then the user finds they like it and grows to a 4 node cluster, all the way up to a 100 node cluster.  So it uses KVM, FlatManager, config drive injection, Postgresql, etc. - I'm afraid it is still quite "opinionated"!  I have Keystone, Glance & Nova installing.  I'm using supervisord to avoid any OS dependencies/flamewars, but I would imagine that any OS packager could move it to their preferred init.d flavor easily.  Swift is next on my list - I was facing the problem that the number of replicas isn't changeable, though I have a patch for that now.
> 
> If you'd like to work together, I'd love to collaborate (and that holds for anyone doing packaging).  I'm hanging out in #openstack-packaging
> 
> Justin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> -- 
> Ghe Rivero
> OpenStack & Distribution Engineer
> www.stackops.com |  ghe.rivero@xxxxxxxxxxxx | +34 625 63 45 23 | skype:ghe.rivero
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> Ghe Rivero
> OpenStack & Distribution Engineer
> www.stackops.com |  ghe.rivero@xxxxxxxxxxxx | +34 625 63 45 23 | skype:ghe.rivero
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