ubuntu-phone team mailing list archive

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad <joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Why would it be necessary for Canonical to make a new phone when they can
just ask Meizu and Bq to provide a new batch?

Again; if the plan was to not sell many phones, then why would you expect
them to sell many?

The whole point is that Ubuntu for phones is a work in progress. It hasn't
been made generally available, because it isn't ready for the average user.
The phones that were released, were not supposed to go mainstream. The
point was to have a small community, not a big one. You want only the
people who are very enthusiastic. If you have many users, that goes away
and people will be disappointed, because they're not used to being a part
of a development process.

Someone pointed out that the latest batch of phones were released only a
few months ago. What's the hurry? It's still only for developers and
testers, right?


On 12 September 2016 at 01:30, Mathijs Veen <mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi
>
> (Jo-Erlend, I think you are missing the point: There aren't any phones for
> new user to get. But worse: there are no phones for active users/developers
> to replace theirs if broken. There haven’t been for quite some time. That's
> bad because it is really hampering community involvement, let alone growing
> it).
>
> If I may boil the discussion down:
>
> The last Ubuntu phone that went to market (in very limited numbers and for
> a very short time) was in back in April. Today, virtually no one in this
> thread is expecting another official Ubuntu device any time soon.
> No one knows this for sure but quite a bitter pill if true. Question is:
> what do we do now?
>
> The thread provides a few options:
>
> 1) A Canonical phone.
> I would say the least likely, if not a daydream. Most of the reasons for
> that have been listed above. Canonical just isn't a hardware company.
>
> 2) Return to the Nexus line again as reference devices.
> This could work to keep the project -and especially community involvement-
> alive in the short term. But Canonical would have to pick some of the
> current Nexus models to enable and maintain again. Without that -ie having
> to muddle on with the N4- will soon have most ppl jump ship. As per a lot
> of previous comments and also my own experience: the N4 is just a little
> too underpowered for convergence over the wire and will never support
> wireless convergence anyway. The N4 is the only Nexus reference device left
> and it is hopelessly outdated. Also they are indeed ridiculously prone to
> breakage.
>
> 3) A community port
> I have been following the ubports project basically since it started and
> especially Marius has been doing a massive job. However: the number of
> different devices has, imho, been spread out too wide and funding has been
> far too thin.
> The only way I believe this could possibly work is this: Assuming we get
> indication that 1 and 2 are not going to happen, we have to organise some
> kind of community vote where we decide on one, or at most two, devices that
> are going to be ported for ut for the coming 1.5-2 years. We focus and
> rally for funding and community time and knowlegde on that phone and stick
> with it. We get people to see that spreading all that porting effort over
> all those devices (see https://devices.ubports.com/#/) isnt going to get
> us a stable UT phone for the short and mid term. Let us call it a community
> reference device.
> And I wont mind adding that I agree with some in this thread that the
> Fairphone2 should be a strong candidate for this. But that is for a
> separate discussion.
>
> Some final personal thoughts.
> I have tried to be as involved as my time and knowledge allowed me since
> very early on in the project. I first flashed a Galaxy Nexus (remember
> Maguro guys?) in October 2013. I have been using, discussing, promoting,
> testing, bug reporting and even doing a limited bit of programming for UT
> ever since. Most of you all have similar stories. And I still believe in
> the project. Actually, today more then ever.
>
> But this is the first time I am thoroughly worried for the future of the
> Ubuntu converged desktop/phone/tablet.
>
> Sure, Ubuntu core and Unity8 will continue but will obviously will take
> very different routes than if there were well maintained real-world devices
> around that developers and early adopters could use. For one thing: who's
> gonna build apps for a system that doesn't have any actual phones?
>
> One last reason I am worried: Because during this, and some other
> mail-threads and other channel discussions lately, there has been almost
> dead silence from the Ubuntu Community Management on this.
>
> I know they are in a difficult position in this because it is probably
> impossible for them to come out and say: yeah guys, regrettably there
> aren't going to be any new devices on the market any time soon.
> Nevertheless, If that is the case one would think that working with this
> community to bridge some bad times with either a new official reference
> device or a focused, mutual effort from Canonical and community developers
> on a port could be the best course to take to keep this thing alive.
>
> So (still operating on the sad assumption that no new device will appear
> on the market any time soon) : If none of the above scenarios get any
> traction, I will -with pain in my heart- be forced to say goodbye to Ubuntu
> touch as the phone I have been using for the past 3 years. Just because
> there isn't any.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Mathijs
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
> joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Why are you even asking if Meizu of Bq has lost interest? Do you know
>> something I don't? The point was to produce a small number of phones for
>> people who really want it and knows why. Developers and enthusiasts. This
>> was announced as the strategy from the very beginning, long before there
>> were any phones to be bought. Ubuntu for phones hasn't been announced as
>> ready for mainstream and it isn't. Now we have quite a few people using
>> Ubuntu on phones and providing feedback and software, building a community.
>> That takes time. Hopefully, more developers and Ubuntu enthusiasts want the
>> phone when they see feedback from existing users. Then it might be time for
>> another small batch of phones, expanding the community and increasing the
>> guerilla marketing.
>>
>> One of the worst things that could happen, was if curious people got the
>> impression that it was ready for mainstream and got one, only to be
>> disappointed and then running around on social media talking about how bad
>> it is. People who really understand the project, however, knows it's a WIP
>> and they're not so put off by its limitations. These are good ambassadors.
>>
>> There's lots of stuff that must be done. For instance, it would make
>> sense to switch Ubuntu for phones to Snap rather than Click. And of course,
>> the big USP for Ubuntu for phones, is it's ability to function as a desktop
>> as well. But that doesn't really work yet. For now, Ubuntu for phones is
>> better off being a geeky thing.
>>
>> What's the hurry?
>>
>> On 8 September 2016 at 05:58, mark <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> If Meizu and bq have lost interest in the platform, and are really not
>>> planning to build new phones then, perhaps enthusiasts - of which there
>>> seem to be no shortage - should go down the Fairphone route, and
>>> crowd-source a small run of devices, designed for Ubuntu and produced by an
>>> OEM. I don't know what the run of the Meizu or bq phones amounted to, but
>>> surely say ~20,000 high-spec Ubuntu phones could be sold?
>>>
>>>
>>> m
>>>
>>> On 07/09/16 17:53, Mitchell Reese wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 8 September 2016 4:47:42 AM AEST, Bob Summerwill
>>> <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running Touch?
>>>
>>>
>>> I suspect that the answer to that is "no".
>>>
>>> If, as seems likely, both BQ and Meizu have no immediate plans to ship
>>> further Ubuntu Touch devices then that likely means that it is not
>>> economically beneficial to them to do so.   That certainly isn't an
>>> appealing market for other OEMs to join.    Canonical would likely be
>>> pouring their money down the drain with such a device.
>>>
>>> Mozilla went through a very similar journey with Firefox OS, though with
>>> way more devices and way more traction.   They ended up giving up on the
>>> device side, and focusing on just community ports, and on application of
>>> the OS to new (non-mobile) markets.
>>>
>>> Mobile is a tough, tough market to compete with.    Commodity Android
>>> devices are very, very compelling to the mass market.    Mobile Linux is
>>> a
>>> really niche.   See the troubles Jolla have experienced too.     Even
>>> Samsung are struggling to make any kind of impact with Tizen - though
>>> that
>>> likely has more to do with their own internal politics than any lack of
>>> resourcing or ability to sell large volumes.
>>>
>>> My personal feeling is that mobile is now "mature", and uninteresting,
>>> like
>>> the PC market.   Who really cares if you have an ASUS or an Acer or a HP
>>> or
>>> whatever.    They have razor-thin markets and little differentiation.
>>> I
>>> think that is where mobile is getting to be, with Android as the
>>> Windows,
>>> and iOS as the Mac.    So iOS is premium and profitable, "because
>>> Apple",
>>> but Android is the de-facto standard, commodity and unprofitable.
>>> That
>>> is a really unappealing place to try to build a third platform.
>>>
>>> Android has utterly skewed manufacturing too, to my understanding, so
>>> that
>>> if you want to get a SoC now, you are going to get Android bootloaders
>>> and
>>> drivers on it.   As blobs.   And you're just going to have to suck that
>>> up.
>>>    Want X11 drivers?   No way.
>>>
>>> Tizen is the only mobile Linux which hasn't just made the pragmatic
>>> choice
>>> of avoiding the issue by using Hybris.   For everybody else, Android has
>>> become the de-facto HAL :-)
>>>
>>> So yeah... I have an MX5 Pro as my daily driver and love it.   MX4
>>> before
>>> that.    But I don't have much hope of any future Ubuntu Touch mobile
>>> devices.    I think we're likely walking dead, but just haven't stopped
>>> walking yet.
>>>
>>> So maybe Jolla and Tizen are the "last men standing" in this space?
>>> For
>>> mobile profile, at least.    Tablets are a different story.   Ditto IoT
>>> and
>>> Ubuntu Snappy Core.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 10:49 AM, mark <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx>
>>> <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> The same thought had crossed my mind. Touch seems to be reaching the
>>> point
>>> of maturity where something of the Edge's specs might come to fruition.
>>> It
>>> would be a winner, imho.
>>>
>>> Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running Touch?
>>>
>>> m
>>>
>>> On 07/09/16 14:32, Art wrote:
>>>
>>> Question.......
>>>
>>> I read all the comments, and I am now curious.....
>>>
>>> What is to stop Canonical from releasing their own branded phones right
>>> now?? Just because the current 'offering' isn't Canonical branded, Is
>>> there
>>> anything that prevents them from selling a Canonical branded phone later
>>> on??
>>>
>>> After all, now we know that a linux based phone actually works, what is
>>> to
>>> stop Canonical (or even myself) from seeking out an independent phone
>>> OEM,
>>> buying them in bulk and rebranding them, complete with the linux
>>> software
>>> already installed?
>>>
>>> Great list all, I hope to see the linux phone succeed! It's about time
>>> we
>>> take back control of our own phones and block all the 'features' that
>>> rob
>>> us of our privacy!!
>>>
>>> Art
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09/05/2016 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Tataradziński wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Did anyone from Canonical considered to 'simply' develop phone
>>> themselves
>>> alone, order it in factory and sell with Canonical brand?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmmm. Disagree - thanfully. Otherwise, whats the point? Similar
>>> arguments when Microsoft was still a thing - why compete?
>>>
>>> The thing about Ubuntu is it's also a desktop system - and has the
>>> potential to be much more. Will be interesting to see where this goes, but
>>> I'm backing Canonical.
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>
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>
>