Well I am not quite that pessimistic Bob,
I am just saying if no oems are doing a new Ubuntu phone any time
soon, you would need a relatively current reference device that is
stable. Just to tide every one over till that time does come again.
Say an N5 or N6. I congratulate you on getting your hands on an MX5. I
was just a week too late on that one. Completely surprised at such a
limited run. I would take it of your hands if you' re ditching it :)
It wasn’t my intention to bash the project to death at all. I do
actually believe in the possibility of breaking into the status quo.
If the proposition is good enough. And I still believe UT can be that.
I recently did a live head-to-head on comparison with a hp windows
continuum phone. And Ubuntu won on some major points hands down.
Convergence is pretty awsum already and the design is as good as any
phone I have owned.
But i think Canonical can't afford to lose the base of users it has
now. So they need a reliable device coming from somewhere.
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Bob Summerwill <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Great summary, Mathijs,
I have been using first a Meizu MX4 and then a Meizu MX5 Pro
successfully here in Vancouver, Canada as my daily driver.
But in the absence of real devices, there is little point in the
project continuing. It would just be a drain of limited funding
for Canonical, who have plenty of other important projects which
need their focus.
It is indeed a bitter pill to swallow, but unlike other open
source projects which can continue indefinitely as long as there
are people with itches to scratch, for Ubuntu Touch and other
mobile OSes there is a real co-dependency between hardware and
specific software. You aren't making software which can run on any
x86 chip, as is the case for much of the desktop world.
Without supported hardware, it is pointless. Well, you could
support the emulators indefinitely, but that isn't producing any
real value in itself.
The same situation has already led to the demise of MeeGo, Firefox
OS and a trial-by-fire for Sailfish OS. And the zombie state of
Windows Phone, for that matter. Blackberry OS is on death's door
as well. You need to achieve critical mass, or you die.
Withdrawing to just tablets is another option, because it removes
the whole wireless modem stack and carriers from the picture.
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Mathijs Veen
<mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi
(Jo-Erlend, I think you are missing the point: There aren't
any phones for new user to get. But worse: there are no phones
for active users/developers to replace theirs if broken. There
haven’t been for quite some time. That's bad because it is
really hampering community involvement, let alone growing it).
If I may boil the discussion down:
The last Ubuntu phone that went to market (in very limited
numbers and for a very short time) was in back in April.
Today, virtually no one in this thread is expecting another
official Ubuntu device any time soon.
No one knows this for sure but quite a bitter pill if true.
Question is: what do we do now?
The thread provides a few options:
1) A Canonical phone.
I would say the least likely, if not a daydream. Most of the
reasons for that have been listed above. Canonical just isn't
a hardware company.
2) Return to the Nexus line again as reference devices.
This could work to keep the project -and especially community
involvement- alive in the short term. But Canonical would have
to pick some of the current Nexus models to enable and
maintain again. Without that -ie having to muddle on with the
N4- will soon have most ppl jump ship. As per a lot of
previous comments and also my own experience: the N4 is just a
little too underpowered for convergence over the wire and will
never support wireless convergence anyway. The N4 is the only
Nexus reference device left and it is hopelessly outdated.
Also they are indeed ridiculously prone to breakage.
3) A community port
I have been following the ubports project basically since it
started and especially Marius has been doing a massive job.
However: the number of different devices has, imho, been
spread out too wide and funding has been far too thin.
The only way I believe this could possibly work is this:
Assuming we get indication that 1 and 2 are not going to
happen, we have to organise some kind of community vote where
we decide on one, or at most two, devices that are going to be
ported for ut for the coming 1.5-2 years. We focus and rally
for funding and community time and knowlegde on that phone and
stick with it. We get people to see that spreading all that
porting effort over all those devices (see
https://devices.ubports.com/#/) isnt going to get us a stable
UT phone for the short and mid term. Let us call it a
community reference device.
And I wont mind adding that I agree with some in this thread
that the Fairphone2 should be a strong candidate for this. But
that is for a separate discussion.
Some final personal thoughts.
I have tried to be as involved as my time and knowledge
allowed me since very early on in the project. I first flashed
a Galaxy Nexus (remember Maguro guys?) in October 2013. I have
been using, discussing, promoting, testing, bug reporting and
even doing a limited bit of programming for UT ever since.
Most of you all have similar stories. And I still believe in
the project. Actually, today more then ever.
But this is the first time I am thoroughly worried for the
future of the Ubuntu converged desktop/phone/tablet.
Sure, Ubuntu core and Unity8 will continue but will obviously
will take very different routes than if there were well
maintained real-world devices around that developers and early
adopters could use. For one thing: who's gonna build apps for
a system that doesn't have any actual phones?
One last reason I am worried: Because during this, and some
other mail-threads and other channel discussions lately, there
has been almost dead silence from the Ubuntu Community
Management on this.
I know they are in a difficult position in this because it is
probably impossible for them to come out and say: yeah guys,
regrettably there aren't going to be any new devices on the
market any time soon. Nevertheless, If that is the case one
would think that working with this community to bridge some
bad times with either a new official reference device or a
focused, mutual effort from Canonical and community developers
on a port could be the best course to take to keep this thing
alive.
So (still operating on the sad assumption that no new device
will appear on the market any time soon) : If none of the
above scenarios get any traction, I will -with pain in my
heart- be forced to say goodbye to Ubuntu touch as the phone I
have been using for the past 3 years. Just because there isn't
any.
Cheers
Mathijs
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
<joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Why are you even asking if Meizu of Bq has lost interest?
Do you know something I don't? The point was to produce a
small number of phones for people who really want it and
knows why. Developers and enthusiasts. This was announced
as the strategy from the very beginning, long before there
were any phones to be bought. Ubuntu for phones hasn't
been announced as ready for mainstream and it isn't. Now
we have quite a few people using Ubuntu on phones and
providing feedback and software, building a community.
That takes time. Hopefully, more developers and Ubuntu
enthusiasts want the phone when they see feedback from
existing users. Then it might be time for another small
batch of phones, expanding the community and increasing
the guerilla marketing.
One of the worst things that could happen, was if curious
people got the impression that it was ready for mainstream
and got one, only to be disappointed and then running
around on social media talking about how bad it is. People
who really understand the project, however, knows it's a
WIP and they're not so put off by its limitations. These
are good ambassadors.
There's lots of stuff that must be done. For instance, it
would make sense to switch Ubuntu for phones to Snap
rather than Click. And of course, the big USP for Ubuntu
for phones, is it's ability to function as a desktop as
well. But that doesn't really work yet. For now, Ubuntu
for phones is better off being a geeky thing.
What's the hurry?
On 8 September 2016 at 05:58, mark <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx
<mailto:j.m.holmes@xxxxxx>> wrote:
If Meizu and bq have lost interest in the platform,
and are really not planning to build new phones then,
perhaps enthusiasts - of which there seem to be no
shortage - should go down the Fairphone route, and
crowd-source a small run of devices, designed for
Ubuntu and produced by an OEM. I don't know what the
run of the Meizu or bq phones amounted to, but surely
say ~20,000 high-spec Ubuntu phones could be sold?
m
On 07/09/16 17:53, Mitchell Reese wrote:
On Thursday, 8 September 2016 4:47:42 AM AEST, Bob
Summerwill <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running
Touch?
I suspect that the answer to that is "no".
If, as seems likely, both BQ and Meizu have no
immediate plans to ship
further Ubuntu Touch devices then that likely means
that it is not
economically beneficial to them to do so. That
certainly isn't an
appealing market for other OEMs to join.
Canonical would likely be
pouring their money down the drain with such a device.
Mozilla went through a very similar journey with
Firefox OS, though with
way more devices and way more traction. They ended
up giving up on the
device side, and focusing on just community ports,
and on application of
the OS to new (non-mobile) markets.
Mobile is a tough, tough market to compete with.
Commodity Android
devices are very, very compelling to the mass
market. Mobile Linux is a
really niche. See the troubles Jolla have
experienced too. Even
Samsung are struggling to make any kind of impact
with Tizen - though that
likely has more to do with their own internal
politics than any lack of
resourcing or ability to sell large volumes.
My personal feeling is that mobile is now "mature",
and uninteresting, like
the PC market. Who really cares if you have an
ASUS or an Acer or a HP or
whatever. They have razor-thin markets and little
differentiation. I
think that is where mobile is getting to be, with
Android as the Windows,
and iOS as the Mac. So iOS is premium and
profitable, "because Apple",
but Android is the de-facto standard, commodity and
unprofitable. That
is a really unappealing place to try to build a
third platform.
Android has utterly skewed manufacturing too, to my
understanding, so that
if you want to get a SoC now, you are going to get
Android bootloaders and
drivers on it. As blobs. And you're just going
to have to suck that up.
Want X11 drivers? No way.
Tizen is the only mobile Linux which hasn't just
made the pragmatic choice
of avoiding the issue by using Hybris. For
everybody else, Android has
become the de-facto HAL :-)
So yeah... I have an MX5 Pro as my daily driver and
love it. MX4 before
that. But I don't have much hope of any future
Ubuntu Touch mobile
devices. I think we're likely walking dead, but
just haven't stopped
walking yet.
So maybe Jolla and Tizen are the "last men standing"
in this space? For
mobile profile, at least. Tablets are a different
story. Ditto IoT and
Ubuntu Snappy Core.
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 10:49 AM, mark
<j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> <mailto:j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> wrote:
+1
The same thought had crossed my mind. Touch seems
to be reaching the point
of maturity where something of the Edge's specs
might come to fruition. It
would be a winner, imho.
Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running Touch?
m
On 07/09/16 14:32, Art wrote:
Question.......
I read all the comments, and I am now curious.....
What is to stop Canonical from releasing their own
branded phones right
now?? Just because the current 'offering' isn't
Canonical branded, Is there
anything that prevents them from selling a
Canonical branded phone later
on??
After all, now we know that a linux based phone
actually works, what is to
stop Canonical (or even myself) from seeking out an
independent phone OEM,
buying them in bulk and rebranding them, complete
with the linux software
already installed?
Great list all, I hope to see the linux phone
succeed! It's about time we
take back control of our own phones and block all
the 'features' that rob
us of our privacy!!
Art
On 09/05/2016 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Tataradziński wrote:
Hi
Did anyone from Canonical considered to 'simply'
develop phone themselves
alone, order it in factory and sell with Canonical
brand?
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Hmmm. Disagree - thanfully. Otherwise, whats the
point? Similar arguments when Microsoft was still a
thing - why compete?
The thing about Ubuntu is it's also a desktop system
- and has the potential to be much more. Will be
interesting to see where this goes, but I'm backing
Canonical.
M
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