ubuntu-phone team mailing list archive

[Mathijs Veen <mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx>]

Well I am not quite that pessimistic Bob,

I am just saying if no oems are doing a new Ubuntu phone any time soon, you
would need a relatively current reference device that is stable. Just to
tide every one over till that time does come again. Say an N5 or N6. I
congratulate you on getting your hands on an MX5. I was just a week too
late on that one. Completely surprised at such a limited run. I would take
it of your hands if you' re ditching it :)

It wasn’t my intention to bash the project to death at all. I do actually
believe in the possibility of breaking into the status quo. If the
proposition is good enough. And I still believe UT can be that. I recently
did a live head-to-head on comparison with a hp windows continuum phone.
And Ubuntu won on some major points hands down. Convergence is pretty awsum
already and the design is as good as any phone I have owned.

But i think Canonical can't afford to lose the base of users it has now. So
they need a reliable device coming from somewhere.


On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Bob Summerwill <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Great summary, Mathijs,
>
> I have been using first a Meizu MX4 and then a Meizu MX5 Pro successfully
> here in Vancouver, Canada as my daily driver.
>
> But in the absence of real devices, there is little point in the project
> continuing.   It would just be a drain of limited funding for Canonical,
> who have plenty of other important projects which need their focus.
>
> It is indeed a bitter pill to swallow, but unlike other open source
> projects which can continue indefinitely as long as there are people with
> itches to scratch, for Ubuntu Touch and other mobile OSes there is a real
> co-dependency between hardware and specific software.   You aren't making
> software which can run on any x86 chip, as is the case for much of the
> desktop world.
>
> Without supported hardware, it is pointless.   Well, you could support the
> emulators indefinitely, but that isn't producing any real value in itself.
>
> The same situation has already led to the demise of MeeGo, Firefox OS and
> a trial-by-fire for Sailfish OS.    And the zombie state of Windows Phone,
> for that matter.   Blackberry OS is on death's door as well.    You need to
> achieve critical mass, or you die.
>
> Withdrawing to just tablets is another option, because it removes the
> whole wireless modem stack and carriers from the picture.
>
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Mathijs Veen <mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> (Jo-Erlend, I think you are missing the point: There aren't any phones
>> for new user to get. But worse: there are no phones for active
>> users/developers to replace theirs if broken. There haven’t been for quite
>> some time. That's bad because it is really hampering community involvement,
>> let alone growing it).
>>
>> If I may boil the discussion down:
>>
>> The last Ubuntu phone that went to market (in very limited numbers and
>> for a very short time) was in back in April. Today, virtually no one in
>> this thread is expecting another official Ubuntu device any time soon.
>> No one knows this for sure but quite a bitter pill if true. Question is:
>> what do we do now?
>>
>> The thread provides a few options:
>>
>> 1) A Canonical phone.
>> I would say the least likely, if not a daydream. Most of the reasons for
>> that have been listed above. Canonical just isn't a hardware company.
>>
>> 2) Return to the Nexus line again as reference devices.
>> This could work to keep the project -and especially community
>> involvement- alive in the short term. But Canonical would have to pick some
>> of the current Nexus models to enable and maintain again. Without that -ie
>> having to muddle on with the N4- will soon have most ppl jump ship. As per
>> a lot of previous comments and also my own experience: the N4 is just a
>> little too underpowered for convergence over the wire and will never
>> support wireless convergence anyway. The N4 is the only Nexus reference
>> device left and it is hopelessly outdated. Also they are indeed
>> ridiculously prone to breakage.
>>
>> 3) A community port
>> I have been following the ubports project basically since it started and
>> especially Marius has been doing a massive job. However: the number of
>> different devices has, imho, been spread out too wide and funding has been
>> far too thin.
>> The only way I believe this could possibly work is this: Assuming we get
>> indication that 1 and 2 are not going to happen, we have to organise some
>> kind of community vote where we decide on one, or at most two, devices that
>> are going to be ported for ut for the coming 1.5-2 years. We focus and
>> rally for funding and community time and knowlegde on that phone and stick
>> with it. We get people to see that spreading all that porting effort over
>> all those devices (see https://devices.ubports.com/#/) isnt going to get
>> us a stable UT phone for the short and mid term. Let us call it a community
>> reference device.
>> And I wont mind adding that I agree with some in this thread that the
>> Fairphone2 should be a strong candidate for this. But that is for a
>> separate discussion.
>>
>> Some final personal thoughts.
>> I have tried to be as involved as my time and knowledge allowed me since
>> very early on in the project. I first flashed a Galaxy Nexus (remember
>> Maguro guys?) in October 2013. I have been using, discussing, promoting,
>> testing, bug reporting and even doing a limited bit of programming for UT
>> ever since. Most of you all have similar stories. And I still believe in
>> the project. Actually, today more then ever.
>>
>> But this is the first time I am thoroughly worried for the future of the
>> Ubuntu converged desktop/phone/tablet.
>>
>> Sure, Ubuntu core and Unity8 will continue but will obviously will take
>> very different routes than if there were well maintained real-world devices
>> around that developers and early adopters could use. For one thing: who's
>> gonna build apps for a system that doesn't have any actual phones?
>>
>> One last reason I am worried: Because during this, and some other
>> mail-threads and other channel discussions lately, there has been almost
>> dead silence from the Ubuntu Community Management on this.
>>
>> I know they are in a difficult position in this because it is probably
>> impossible for them to come out and say: yeah guys, regrettably there
>> aren't going to be any new devices on the market any time soon.
>> Nevertheless, If that is the case one would think that working with this
>> community to bridge some bad times with either a new official reference
>> device or a focused, mutual effort from Canonical and community developers
>> on a port could be the best course to take to keep this thing alive.
>>
>> So (still operating on the sad assumption that no new device will appear
>> on the market any time soon) : If none of the above scenarios get any
>> traction, I will -with pain in my heart- be forced to say goodbye to Ubuntu
>> touch as the phone I have been using for the past 3 years. Just because
>> there isn't any.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Mathijs
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
>> joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Why are you even asking if Meizu of Bq has lost interest? Do you know
>>> something I don't? The point was to produce a small number of phones for
>>> people who really want it and knows why. Developers and enthusiasts. This
>>> was announced as the strategy from the very beginning, long before there
>>> were any phones to be bought. Ubuntu for phones hasn't been announced as
>>> ready for mainstream and it isn't. Now we have quite a few people using
>>> Ubuntu on phones and providing feedback and software, building a community.
>>> That takes time. Hopefully, more developers and Ubuntu enthusiasts want the
>>> phone when they see feedback from existing users. Then it might be time for
>>> another small batch of phones, expanding the community and increasing the
>>> guerilla marketing.
>>>
>>> One of the worst things that could happen, was if curious people got the
>>> impression that it was ready for mainstream and got one, only to be
>>> disappointed and then running around on social media talking about how bad
>>> it is. People who really understand the project, however, knows it's a WIP
>>> and they're not so put off by its limitations. These are good ambassadors.
>>>
>>> There's lots of stuff that must be done. For instance, it would make
>>> sense to switch Ubuntu for phones to Snap rather than Click. And of course,
>>> the big USP for Ubuntu for phones, is it's ability to function as a desktop
>>> as well. But that doesn't really work yet. For now, Ubuntu for phones is
>>> better off being a geeky thing.
>>>
>>> What's the hurry?
>>>
>>> On 8 September 2016 at 05:58, mark <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Meizu and bq have lost interest in the platform, and are really not
>>>> planning to build new phones then, perhaps enthusiasts - of which there
>>>> seem to be no shortage - should go down the Fairphone route, and
>>>> crowd-source a small run of devices, designed for Ubuntu and produced by an
>>>> OEM. I don't know what the run of the Meizu or bq phones amounted to, but
>>>> surely say ~20,000 high-spec Ubuntu phones could be sold?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>> On 07/09/16 17:53, Mitchell Reese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, 8 September 2016 4:47:42 AM AEST, Bob Summerwill
>>>> <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running Touch?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that the answer to that is "no".
>>>>
>>>> If, as seems likely, both BQ and Meizu have no immediate plans to ship
>>>> further Ubuntu Touch devices then that likely means that it is not
>>>> economically beneficial to them to do so.   That certainly isn't an
>>>> appealing market for other OEMs to join.    Canonical would likely be
>>>> pouring their money down the drain with such a device.
>>>>
>>>> Mozilla went through a very similar journey with Firefox OS, though
>>>> with
>>>> way more devices and way more traction.   They ended up giving up on
>>>> the
>>>> device side, and focusing on just community ports, and on application
>>>> of
>>>> the OS to new (non-mobile) markets.
>>>>
>>>> Mobile is a tough, tough market to compete with.    Commodity Android
>>>> devices are very, very compelling to the mass market.    Mobile Linux
>>>> is a
>>>> really niche.   See the troubles Jolla have experienced too.     Even
>>>> Samsung are struggling to make any kind of impact with Tizen - though
>>>> that
>>>> likely has more to do with their own internal politics than any lack of
>>>> resourcing or ability to sell large volumes.
>>>>
>>>> My personal feeling is that mobile is now "mature", and uninteresting,
>>>> like
>>>> the PC market.   Who really cares if you have an ASUS or an Acer or a
>>>> HP or
>>>> whatever.    They have razor-thin markets and little
>>>> differentiation.    I
>>>> think that is where mobile is getting to be, with Android as the
>>>> Windows,
>>>> and iOS as the Mac.    So iOS is premium and profitable, "because
>>>> Apple",
>>>> but Android is the de-facto standard, commodity and unprofitable.
>>>> That
>>>> is a really unappealing place to try to build a third platform.
>>>>
>>>> Android has utterly skewed manufacturing too, to my understanding, so
>>>> that
>>>> if you want to get a SoC now, you are going to get Android bootloaders
>>>> and
>>>> drivers on it.   As blobs.   And you're just going to have to suck that
>>>> up.
>>>>    Want X11 drivers?   No way.
>>>>
>>>> Tizen is the only mobile Linux which hasn't just made the pragmatic
>>>> choice
>>>> of avoiding the issue by using Hybris.   For everybody else, Android
>>>> has
>>>> become the de-facto HAL :-)
>>>>
>>>> So yeah... I have an MX5 Pro as my daily driver and love it.   MX4
>>>> before
>>>> that.    But I don't have much hope of any future Ubuntu Touch mobile
>>>> devices.    I think we're likely walking dead, but just haven't stopped
>>>> walking yet.
>>>>
>>>> So maybe Jolla and Tizen are the "last men standing" in this space?
>>>> For
>>>> mobile profile, at least.    Tablets are a different story.   Ditto IoT
>>>> and
>>>> Ubuntu Snappy Core.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 10:49 AM, mark <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx>
>>>> <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> The same thought had crossed my mind. Touch seems to be reaching the
>>>> point
>>>> of maturity where something of the Edge's specs might come to fruition.
>>>> It
>>>> would be a winner, imho.
>>>>
>>>> Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running Touch?
>>>>
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>> On 07/09/16 14:32, Art wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Question.......
>>>>
>>>> I read all the comments, and I am now curious.....
>>>>
>>>> What is to stop Canonical from releasing their own branded phones right
>>>> now?? Just because the current 'offering' isn't Canonical branded, Is
>>>> there
>>>> anything that prevents them from selling a Canonical branded phone
>>>> later
>>>> on??
>>>>
>>>> After all, now we know that a linux based phone actually works, what is
>>>> to
>>>> stop Canonical (or even myself) from seeking out an independent phone
>>>> OEM,
>>>> buying them in bulk and rebranding them, complete with the linux
>>>> software
>>>> already installed?
>>>>
>>>> Great list all, I hope to see the linux phone succeed! It's about time
>>>> we
>>>> take back control of our own phones and block all the 'features' that
>>>> rob
>>>> us of our privacy!!
>>>>
>>>> Art
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 09/05/2016 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Tataradziński wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Did anyone from Canonical considered to 'simply' develop phone
>>>> themselves
>>>> alone, order it in factory and sell with Canonical brand?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm. Disagree - thanfully. Otherwise, whats the point? Similar
>>>> arguments when Microsoft was still a thing - why compete?
>>>>
>>>> The thing about Ubuntu is it's also a desktop system - and has the
>>>> potential to be much more. Will be interesting to see where this goes, but
>>>> I'm backing Canonical.
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>