unity-design team mailing list archive

[Toki Tahmid <oxwivi@xxxxxxxxx>]

@Ian, like I said, slightly increasing the width to accommodate menus won't
do much harm. Programs full of functions like GIMP would be used maximised
anyway.

While I can't comment on user knowing it, I think the title button (that
Renze suggested) would be good place to allow dragging. I can't think of any
other solution, but I still stand for menu in title bar.

@Renze, sorry to have misunderstood, but I think menu bars should be besides
the button you suggest.

On 16 April 2011 20:40, Ian Santopietro <isantop@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Some windows mare exceedingly small (Empathy) or have a very large number
> of menus (GIMP). Just because this is true for most windows doesn't mean we
> should leave them out.
>
> As for moving the window, it's difficult for a new user to know that, and
> it requires a few seconds before you can move the window, which could
> decrease productivity. Also, some user click and hold through the menus, and
> that would create confusion when a user tries to drag their mouse through
> the menus and the window moves instead.
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 10:31, Toki Tahmid <oxwivi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> @Mitja, you're misunderstanding, he recommends that menu appears besides
>> title button not inside.
>>
>> @Ian, why can we not allow long mouse button press to drag windows on
>> title bar real estate? Accessing menus or anything on the title bar would
>> not require long presses, but simple clicks. So after one or two seconds, if
>> the mouse hasn't moved to menu options, the cursor can handle dragging the
>> window.
>>
>> Menus do not usually number more than five or six, so on typical windows,
>> widening them slightly would go a long way. I'm against fading in of menus
>> then disappearing because it will escape the view of any inattentive user,
>> Menus can be slightly faded in the title bar as I suggested before, while
>> appearing fully coloured on mouse over.
>>
>>
>> On 16 April 2011 20:07, Ian Santopietro <isantop@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> > Integrate the menu in the titlebar and have it smoothly fade in when
>>> the mouse moves near to it.
>>>
>>> What if I want to move a window? On a multitouch device I can use
>>> three-finger drag or the MT Grab Handles, but on an old fashioned mouse and
>>> keyboard, I can't do it at all since the title bar is now  not used for
>>> dragging the windows around. And it doesn't solve many of the problems
>>> associated with menus right now; What happens when menus are too long for
>>> windows is a big one. Problems like these are what the global menu are
>>> really trying to solve, not saving vertical screen space. We have the
>>> titlebar integration for that one.
>>>
>>>
>>> > I think someone had suggested that when the application first starts,
>>> the window title is displayed for a few seconds before fading to the menu.
>>> If a window is idle for a while the title fades in.
>>>
>>> I think that may have been me (if not, I apologize), and it was slightly
>>> different. But this is a good solution to use with the global menu and the
>>> clutter issue. I initially suggested showing the menu for a second or two
>>> before switching to the title completely, but the one you described would
>>> work too. My only concern is that the title would occasionally be flashing
>>> in and out and alternating with the menus. This could be a distraction. I
>>> recommend simply displaying the title for a few seconds when the window
>>> opens, then fading to the menu and staying there permanently.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 04:36, Christian Mackintosh <
>>> christian.mackintosh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The points you described are valid, but with the increasing of screen
>>>>> sizes and the use of laptops, it's very annoying to move the mouse all the
>>>>> way over to the panel using the touchpad. On the other hand, users are
>>>>> already accustomed to have the menu bars in the window, so I don't see any
>>>>> valid reason to move the menu bar of all the applications to the panel.
>>>>> Having many small windows opened at a given moment will only increase the
>>>>> frustration - go to panel do something, again drag mouse to next window,
>>>>> drag it back up, do something, and it goes on and on...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I could not agree more!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, I am in agreement with your solutions, and the only think
>>>>> I want to add is to change the complete hidden nature of the current menu
>>>>> bars. Users new to Unity would be totally clueless as to where the menu bar
>>>>> is, regardless of it's position on the panel or title bar. If the menus are
>>>>> slightly faded out and fades in on mouse over would look good on top of
>>>>> being functional.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a real problem. I think fading in (like a reverse notification
>>>> bubble, as some have suggested) would really help things, but even if the
>>>> menus remain hidden I think users are far more likely to find them if
>>>> they're integrated in the window titlebar rather than the panel, because if
>>>> they're looking for a menu they're going to be mousing around the window
>>>> they're in, not the top of the screen.
>>>>
>>>> Nonetheless, wherever the menus end up, currently we *are* just relying
>>>> on users to accidentally stumble upon the menus, which seems utterly bizarre
>>>> to me. I know this has been discussed on the mailing list before, but
>>>> something really needs to be done about it.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I would take your suggestion, Toki. Integrate the menu in the
>>>> titlebar and have it smoothly fade in when the mouse moves near to it.
>>>> Failing that (I understand that it's difficult to implement fading on
>>>> proximity) I think someone had suggested that when the application first
>>>> starts, the window title is displayed for a few seconds before fading to the
>>>> menu. If a window is idle for a while the title fades in. IMHO this would
>>>> also be a neat solution.
>>>>
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16 April 2011 14:12, Christian Mackintosh <
>>>>> christian.mackintosh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Toki,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What Greg was saying, I think, was that throwing the mouse up to the
>>>>>> top edge of the screen is a very easy thing to do, in that you don't have to
>>>>>> aim for any target. The way menu bars normally are, and the way both he and
>>>>>> I, amongst others, have proposed, means that you are aiming for a smaller
>>>>>> target in the middle of the screen, which may be slightly slower. However, I
>>>>>> don't actually think that that is really a valid concern because currently
>>>>>> when I try to use the global menu it often works like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Throw mouse to top of screen
>>>>>> 2) Notice that this is the wrong menu (if I'm lucky! A few times I've
>>>>>> started searching in vain through a menu, only to realise after a few
>>>>>> seconds that it's not the one I want)
>>>>>> 3) Move mouse to application, click to focus
>>>>>> 4) Move mouse back to top of screen
>>>>>> 5) Use menu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas if the menubars were integrated into the restored window's
>>>>>> titlebar, the process would be thus:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Move mouse to application
>>>>>> 2) Use menu, even if the window wasn't focused.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, as I said earlier, at the very least it won't be any
>>>>>> slower than the previous behaviour of having separate menu bars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. I think(?) you forgot to CC this message to ayatana, so it just
>>>>>> went to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Toki Tahmid <oxwivi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the masses has already the sense to find the titlebar in the
>>>>>>> window they're interacting in, so that doesn't count...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 16 April 2011 13:37, Christian Mackintosh <
>>>>>>> christian.mackintosh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are absolutely right IMHO. Nothing more to add, just lending my
>>>>>>>> support!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Greg K Nicholson <greg@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > However, Greg, is the downside you are describing for the current
>>>>>>>>> layout
>>>>>>>>> > with menu bar indiscriminately in title bar or the layout you're
>>>>>>>>> describing?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The disadvantage I described was for the layout I described.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having the menu always in the panel makes it quicker to acquire and
>>>>>>>>> click, which is good, but it appears connected to the wrong window.
>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> my view, having the menu appear to be connected to the right window
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> more important than speed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Put another way, the problem with the current layout is this: even
>>>>>>>>> though the menu is in a consistent place all the time, it doesn't
>>>>>>>>> *feel* consistent, and that's confusing.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ☮♥☯
>>>>>>>>> Greg K Nicholson
>>>>>>>>> http://gkn.me.uk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>>>>>>>> Post to     : ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>>>>> Post to     : ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ian Santopietro
>>>
>>> "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast
>>>  Ofer middangeard monnum sended"
>>>
>>> Pa gur yv y porthaur?
>>>
>>> Public GPG key (RSA):
>>> http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ian Santopietro
>
> "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast
>  Ofer middangeard monnum sended"
>
> Pa gur yv y porthaur?
>
> Public GPG key (RSA):
> http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234
>
>