unity-design team mailing list archive

[André Oliva <gandreoliva@xxxxxxxxx>]

>
> My assumption is that if people are easily confused, then reducing the
> number
> of buttons and menus would reduce the chance of confusion. It also makes it
> much more comfortable to work with maximized windows, which is -- as you
> also point out -- becoming common, specially for less experienced users.
>

Reducing buttons is one thing, ***hidding them*** is another very distinct
thing. It's not the same. Like the current hidden menus. The first time I
saw that, I searched why was that change done. And the reason I found was
something like: "the change was done because we want new app designers to
keep the UI simple" (elementary-styled). And there was a comment that I
liked: "hide things is not the way to simplify an interface". Why not? When
in GNOME 3 the maximize and minimize buttons were eliminated, there was a
*simplification*. Hidding things is not a way for simplifying an UI. Well,
you don't show the element, the interface *looks* simple, but the complexity
added to having to learn about the interface makes it more complex,
actually.

Hide all that is not my application is something called "fullscreen" that a
lot of applications have. By definition, to maximize a window is not going
fullscreen.

Any way, configuration options are needed. I personally don't like that
buttons and menus are hidden. And I see that some people like hidden buttons
and menus. And if I have to install Ubuntu for someone new to Linux, I would
like all the hidden items to be shown, because current state, as I said
before, is too confusive. Also think on touch devices. I have seen some of
this devices in YouTube using Ubuntu 10.10 for netbooks, because of menus
are hidden in 11.04 and in 11.10. It's not possible to mouse over in a
tablet computer.

I think before someone makes changes like this, usability tests have to be
performed. Before, not after.

And I also think that Unity shell has to be as simple as possible for the
end user. Unfortunately we can not force to all the users to read a manual
before using an interface, except when the user is totally new to computers.

I'm also worried about netbooks. I don't remember if the current behavior
maximizes all windows. In a desktop computer, when a window is not
maximized, the window controls are shown, and when you click "maximize", the
controls hide. At least you have an idea where the controls are (but really,
I'm assuming too much when I say this). If all windows are maximized by
default, you simply have no idea of where the buttons are.




2011/8/28 James Jenner <james.g.jenner@xxxxxxxxx>

>
> On 28 August 2011 14:07, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxx
> > wrote:
>
>>  Right, and that was what I reacted to. You don't need to develop any
>> muscle
>> memory. If you hit anywhere on the panel (except the indicators,
>> presently)
>> then the menus and the window buttons are shown. Hitting the top of the
>> screen doesn't qualify as something you need muscle memory for since
>> it doesn't matter how far you move the mouse, as long as you move it
>> forward.
>>
>>
> Hmm, maybe I'm not quite getting it. I'll have to wait until I have time
> and build a VM to check it out (most prob not for a week or so alas, got
> some deadlines looming).
>
>
>>
>>  My assumption is that if people are easily confused, then reducing the
>> number
>> of buttons and menus would reduce the chance of confusion. It also makes
>> it
>> much more comfortable to work with maximized windows, which is -- as you
>> also point out -- becoming common, specially for less experienced users.
>>
>>
> Most prob. a fair comment. I suspect I'm biased because I have a very large
> monitor and very rarely work maximised, I think however that most
> inexperienced users would work maximised and so it is more likely to not be
> an issue for those users.
>
>>   Why? Most people I know, haven't got any experience with type writers.
>> It's
>> not obvious to me that a ninety degree angle with a left arrow means you
>> want a new line. It is more obvious that an up arrow means shift, since
>> you're
>> shifting from small to large characters, but it still isn't obvious. Or
>> what about
>> tab? Two arrows pointing to the left and right at a vertical bar? The
>> point,
>> obviously, is that you do need to learn some basic skills in order to
>> interact
>> with the computer and the system. Learning that you can expose extra
>> functionality by moving the pointer to the top of the screen isn't very
>> advanced. I would say that learning to use the mouse buttons are very much
>> more difficult. When do you double click? Why do you never double click on
>> the right button? When do you click the middle button? That _is_
>> complicated
>> and that's something that's improved rather radically with the indicators.
>> People really appreciate that.
>>
>
> I'll give you that point.. I'm used to dealing with the 'older generation'.
> Often we get a lot of people in factories who are in their 40's or 50's, but
> in reality they wouldn't be familiar with a typewriter purely because they
> wouldn't have ever used one other than what they have seen on tv (and the
> return arm of a old manual only vaguely correlates to the arrow as drawn on
> the enter key).
>
>  I think that is an excellent reason not to display extra buttons and menus
>>
>> at all times. How often do these people use the menus in the browser?
>> If it isn't needed, don't show it. Microsofts ribbon interface does the
>> exact
>> opposite and I think it's a very bad idea in very many cases. In some
>> cases
>> it might be useful, but in most cases, I think it makes more sense to hide
>> buttons that aren't needed.
>>
>
> Yup, ribbon only makes sense of something like word and similar. Wish MS
> would let others use it, would be handy on some apps I use.
>
>
>> «...is not comparing apples to apples...» A mobile phone is not the same
>> as a desktop. You generally don't have large applications like LibreOffice
>> or Blender running on it, with hundreds of menu options, etc. I'm not
>> really
>> that impressed by their interface, and I don't think it's just because of
>> it
>> that they're successful. They're masters of the media. For instance, here
>> in Norway, there were three pads on the market before the Ipad were
>> made available. They were being called Ipad competitors a year before
>> Ipad entered the market. That helps. It's not to say that Apples software
>> isn't good. It is. But it is also more than a little overrated.
>>
>
> lol, I agree that it is overrated. However I also know that the interface
> for the iPad and iPhone is far easier for novices to pick up (based on
> personal observations). There is still learning to be performed, but its far
> simpler. I think Android is a lot more complex.
>
> Based on HP's recent moves I'm presuming that tablets are having a bigger
> impact on the PC/laptop market than first expected (which shouldn't really
> be a surprise, why do people buy laptops now a days? mainly to surf the net
> or watch a movie, writing documents, doing graphics design, developing
> software is really in the minority now a days). As such I'm hoping to see
> unity on tablets. So comparing it to iOS is fair to a certain extent, but
> such an environment would want the hidden buttons.
>
>>   Well. If you look at the subject of this thread, then it should become
>> apparent that I wasn't expecting this. Even so, it was completely
>> apparent to me what had changed. It actually took a little while before
>> I noticed that the buttons were not being displayed when I didn't use
>> them. What I did notice, was that it had become much easier to see
>> the title of the page/window I was working in, and that is a real
>> improvement.
>>
>>
> That sounds encouraging, as I said above, I think I should hold off making
> comments until I can actually observe the behaviour. Wish I could get a
> tablet to install ubuntu on and test with some people who I know are
> novices.
>
>
> Many people have been arguing that
>> we shouldn't hide the window controls and menus because people
>> are used to the way things are from Windows. But that is a very weak
>> argument for many reason. All new users of Ubuntu should be made
>> very aware that Ubuntu is a different system. They'll discover that
>> many things are similar, but they shouldn't expect them to be,
>> because that will only cause confusion.
>>
>>
> Agree totally with those sentiments. That is one thing I liked about Unity
> initially, it was the fact that it was finally going on it's own direction
> instead of following the lead from others. Innovation is fun :) Though I
> realise it is hard to be totally original.
>
>
>> I think the fear of change is
>> exaggerated, and in this case, it is unfounded. I don't know exactly
>> how I noticed that the buttons had been hided, but I suspect it
>> happened when they were displayed because I needed them. To
>> me, that is a sign of really good design.
>>
>> Well I have tested this on some ... let's call them rather
>> inexperienced users. I was expecting some strong reactions, in
>> either direction, but I didn't get it. "ok". Some didn't even react
>> at all. "The panel shows either the title or the menus, since you
>> never need both at once". If you think about it, it's quite sensible
>> and not at all difficult to comprehend.
>>
>
> Sounds encouraging then!
>
>   Your presuming that I want things to be the same or to limit ourselves,
> which is wrong. I have only argued that we need to make it easy for people
> to a) learn and b) remember. However this doesn't mean making the UI ugly,
> just usable and intuitive.  Personally I love the approach with Unity and I
> like all the different ideas are being tried. But that doesn't mean that
> every choice taken is a good choice.
>
>>   Well. If it doesn't hurt the user experience, then as much as
>> possible should be discoverable. But since most people are going
>> to spend thousands of hours using their computers, I think it is
>> better to show these things once and then optimize personal
>> efficiency and comfort. We once learned how to shave, right?
>> It wasn't strictly necessary. You would've figured it out by trial
>> and error, but it didn't take long to show it once and it probably
>> saved you from a few cuts and itches. And since then, I'm sure
>> you've shaved a couple of times without feeling any need of a
>> reminder how to do it.
>>
>> And shaving is far less common than interacting with a window.
>> I expect to receive a few points for that analogy :)
>>
>
> lol, interesting analogy, two points for that! :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> James Jenner
>
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