dhis2-devs team mailing list archive

[Knut Staring <knutst@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Ola Hodne Titlestad <olatitle@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> 2009/9/30 Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>> OK.  I've reached the conclusion that the model can and probably should be
>> simplified, but it is really far too much work for what I have time for
>> now.  The categoryoptioncombo is already deeply ingrained in many parts of
>> the system.  So don't hold your breath.
>>
>> I'm going back to focus on my much simpler problem of exploding
>> categorycombooptions into dimensions and vice versa.
>>
>> For querying, I can see the API needs methods added to return datavalues
>> by arbitrary collections of category rather than just fixed
>> categoryoptioncombos.  These only exist for the purpose of data collection.
>> I suspect that this is what Ola needs to create more flexible reporttables.
>> Then when configuring the reporttable you would freely select the dimensions
>> you were interested in.  This is of course do-able - I can see it - but my
>> little brain is struggling with the complexity.
>>
>> Looking at a two stage process it is a matter of getting the collection of
>> categorycombooptionids which intersect with the given set of categories and
>> then passing that collection to the existing API method which returns
>> collections of  datavalues which match particular categorycombooptionids.
>>
>> In principle if we can expose the required methods in the API then it
>> might be possible at some time in the future to revamp the underlying table
>> structure without disturbing the API.
>>
>> Two final thoughts:
>> 1.  if we are bound to the model whereby categoryoptions are free standing
>> entitities (ie many to many relation with categories) then, for the purpose
>> of import/export we are obliged to uniquely identify these as well.  So I
>> will have to reluctantly also put uuids on categoryoptions.  After
>> discussing with Abyot last night, I can see that there is some value in
>> having them the way they are, but we will have to live with the complexity.
>> What you gain on the swings you lose on the roundabouts.
>>
>>
> OK. I still don't get why we need this flexibility though. When using the
> data values you would only query for data element + categories/dimensions
> anyway right, and <5 means <5 whether it is part of AGE1, AGE2 or AGE 3. Or?
>

I think it is quite important to simplify things - as Bob very pointedly
highlighted, there is currently no multidimensionality for indicators, which
I think renders it relatively irrelevant. So I strongly support a
simplification (and renaming) which will allow us to relatively quickly have
good support for 95% of the cases rather than cater for very esoteric needs
that may be useful to a few people. Agile principles and all that.

Knut


>
>
>> 2.  Indicators are not multidimensional.  Why is this?  Was it a conscious
>> decision resulting from earlier discussion or is it just that we haven't got
>> there yet?
>>
>
> Data analysis could benefit from having multidimensional indicators, but
> then since this is strictly for output and never input I would suggest using
> the post-method of assigning indicator group sets and groups (or whatever
> you end up calling it in the UI). What makes indicators interesting and
> complex in this context is that the numerator/denominator formulas should be
> able to contain slices of the multidimensional data element, e.g. "Malaria"
> + "all ages", "male", and not only the flat data element (data element + 1
> categoryoptioncombo, "Malaria"+ "<5", "male") like it is today.
>
>
>>
>> Regards
>> Bob
>>
>> 2009/9/29 Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> 2009/9/29 Abyot Gizaw <abyota@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Jason Pickering <
>>>> jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think Abyot raises some good points, especially his last one about
>>>>> differenences of what the age dimension really is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the biggest challenge is going to be how to unite the concepts
>>>>> of a multidimensional data element (as it is currently implemented
>>>>> with categories) and a data element that has no multidimensionality,
>>>>> at least in the sense of it not being assigned any categories.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Isn't this what we have in the current system? If you are not assigning
>>>> any combination of categories for a dataelement (well of course for the sake
>>>> of consistency - from programming logic point of view - implicitly a default
>>>> category combination with one default category having one default option is
>>>> assigned - it is like putting your value at zero on the dimensions axis)
>>>> then the dataelement has no dimensionality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't really like the default category idea.  The way I have currently
>>> proposed there is no default category.  By default a dataelement has no
>>> dimensions.  It doesn't need a default dimension.  And also by default the
>>> dimensionelementcombination in datavalue is NULL.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What about the following scenario. Could the cateogry/category combos
>>>>> be transformed somehow into a sort of data element generator? Users
>>>>> could define a dimensionality set, assign a master data element, and
>>>>> DHIS would create all of the necessary data elements. So a category
>>>>> combination of Patient Status (OPD, IPD, Deaths) and Age (Under 1
>>>>> ,Under 5 and Over 5) and template data element (Clinical malaria)
>>>>> would produce :
>>>>>
>>>>> OPD Under 1 Clinical Malaria {OPD, Under 1, Clinical Malaria}
>>>>> OPD Under 5 Clinical Malaria {OPD, 1-5, Clinical Malaria}
>>>>> OPD Over 5 Clinical Malaria ...
>>>>> OPD Clinical Malaria Total {OPD, All ages, Clinical Malaria}
>>>>> ...
>>>>> ..
>>>>> ..
>>>>> IP Clinical Malaria Total {IP, All ages, Clinical Malaria}
>>>>> ...
>>>>> ...
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Deaths Clinical Malaria Total {Deaths, All ages, Clinical malaria}
>>>>> Clinical Malaria Total {All patient status, All ages, Clinical malaria}
>>>>>
>>>>> Each one of those data elements would then be assigned a set of
>>>>> dimensions, and a set of dimensional elements.
>>>>> The cateogries functionality would simply be an artifact to produce
>>>>> multiple data elements, without having to enter them seperately, which
>>>>> if I understood Ola yesterday, was one of its intended purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, for those of use such as myself, that do that have already create
>>>>> dozens of data elements with different dimensions in their names (but
>>>>> no where in a relational table) we could assign the dimensionality in
>>>>> a seperate step (post-facto as Bob mentioned earlier). I might want to
>>>>> assign a "uber" dimension of "Communicalble" and "Non-communicable" to
>>>>> a disease type that might not have anything to do with the definition
>>>>> of the data element itself, but would be simply for analysis purposes
>>>>> later.  Again, I may be rehashing my previous emails here, but from a
>>>>> pure SQl standpoint, the approach I suggest here makes sense to me, in
>>>>> terms of queries of how to pull this into a crosstab as well as how to
>>>>> generate a fact table that something like an OLAP server could deal
>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>> This approach might seem to resolve the issue of how to deal with
>>>>> these two different beasts, but unfolding the multidimensional data
>>>>> element into simpler components. Meaning that the
>>>>> cateorgy/combos/options would be used as a templating mechanisms, but
>>>>> that dimensionality could be assigned through a separate set of
>>>>> relations.  Perhaps this is what is represented in the diagram, but I
>>>>> will need to study it tomorrow after some sleep.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do think that that dimenional elements should not be able to be
>>>>> share by dimensions, and that dimensions and dimensional elements
>>>>> should not be able to be deleted without lots of bells and whistles
>>>>> going off once they have been assigned to data elements.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is wrong with that as long as values are not associated with them?
>>>> I think we will be falling back to the current implemention instead - like
>>>> dimensional elements should not be deleted once values are assigned to their
>>>> combinations.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree.  I think we all will agree on this much.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the key question is whether data elements should be able to
>>>>> have multiple DimensionElementCombinations, which I think is the
>>>>> current implementation. I am just not sure this will work with a
>>>>> combination of DHIS2-type-multidimensional elements, and DHIS1.4-type
>>>>
>>>> data elements.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone explain me how the DHIS2 multidimensional dataelement concept
>>>> fails to handle the DHIS 1.4 dataelements - sorry may be I missed this from
>>>> your earlier discussion? I think the way I see it - if the objective is on
>>>> OLAP, pivoting/querying, then what we need is not to change the model -
>>>> instead to develop more APIs which can pull data along a dimension, varying
>>>> degree of overlappings across dimensions - or more generally aggregation of
>>>> values over a flexible set of dimensionelementcombinations !
>>>>
>>>
>>> Again I am with you mostly on this.  In fact that has been my suggestion
>>> all along - to push the functionality into the API.  But having said that I
>>> think the current model is too double-jointed and complex.  I have seen by
>>> trying to unpick the dimensions using xslt I need too many hash tables which
>>> is inefficient.  This no doubt would also translate into too many SQL
>>> clauses.  By trimming the requirement that dimensionelements are freely
>>> assignable the model becomes a good bit simpler.  Beyond that it is mostly
>>> changing names.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Using the example above -  {OPD, IPD}, {Male, Female},{Under 1, 1-5,
>>>> Above 5} and malaria as base dataelement
>>>>
>>>> What we have currently is an API to provide values for
>>>>
>>>> Malaria(OPD,Male,Under 1)
>>>> Malaria(OPD,Male,1-5)
>>>> Malaria(OPD,Male,Above 5)
>>>> Malaria(OPD,Female,Under 1)
>>>> Malaria(OPD,Female,1-5)
>>>> Malaria(OPD,Female,Above 5)
>>>> ....
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> And if I understood correctly .. what is required is to have registred
>>>> cases of
>>>>
>>>> Malaria in the OPD,
>>>> Malaria in the IPD
>>>> Malaria for Males
>>>> Malaria for Females
>>>> ....
>>>> ..
>>>>
>>>> Malaria In the OPD but only those Female
>>>> Malaria In the IPD but for male
>>>> ..
>>>> ..
>>>> ..
>>>> we can list different combinations....
>>>>
>>>> or finally ask ...... for the Malaria
>>>>
>>>> Isn't this a simple question of Aggregation? Does the multidimensional
>>>> datamodel have a limitation to handle the above requirements - or am I
>>>> talking a different stuff here?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No I believe it can probably be done - but yet it doesn't seem to have
>>> been done.  When I started looking at how I might do it I realized that it
>>> could also be simplified.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enough for today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for this Bob. It is a good start.  Can't you make this diagram
>>>>> in DocBook so I can edit it? :D
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Abyot Gizaw <abyodia@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Yes your suggestion is doable and less is better .... but I think the
>>>>> > requirement from the field is more complex.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If, for a moment, we stop talking about datavalues and talk about
>>>>> > dataelements - why are we talking about dimension combinations?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Because you are assuming a dataelement to have only one dimension. Am
>>>>> I
>>>>> > correct? If that is the case, I see a little bit of inconsistency
>>>>> here.
>>>>> > DataElement talks about one dimesion, but its corresponding value
>>>>> talks
>>>>> > about combination of dimensions.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Yes from the datavalue I can have dimensionelementcombinations, pick
>>>>> > dimensionelments regroup and put them in their corresponding
>>>>> dimesions -- in
>>>>> > the end telling me from which dimension they came from. But from this
>>>>> point
>>>>> > onwards I am no more talking about a value of a single dataelement
>>>>> but a
>>>>> > value for combination of dataelements (because I have to pull
>>>>> different
>>>>> > dataelements which can give me the identified dimensions) .... but is
>>>>> this
>>>>> > what we want?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The other point I would like the raise is - will there not be any
>>>>> limitation
>>>>> > on the flexibility of the system when putting the restriction "A
>>>>> Dimension
>>>>> > has many DimensionElements.  But a DimensionElement is a member of
>>>>> only one
>>>>> > Dimension" ? Not only system flexibility problem, I see a logical
>>>>> problem as
>>>>> > well. Because if we think for example beyond the obvious
>>>>> > SEX(male,female,unknown) - I see a strong need for letting
>>>>> dimensionelements
>>>>> > to be member of multiple dimensions: For example take the other
>>>>> obvious
>>>>> > dimension - AGE. And assume <5 yrs, 5-10 yrs, and <5 yrs as its
>>>>> > dimesionelements. May be such scaling of the AGE dimension is
>>>>> approrpiate
>>>>> > for Malaria case, but for TB case people might be interested to break
>>>>> the
>>>>> > AGE dimension into <5yrs, 5-10yrs, 10-15yrs, >15yrs - so how are we
>>>>> going to
>>>>> > handle cases like this? Are we going to define a number of <5yrs or
>>>>> are we
>>>>> > going to use the same <5yr dimensionelement ?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thank you
>>>>> > Abyot.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> OK.  Here's my first attempt to rationalize things.  Please excuse
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> attachments.  I try not to send attachments to mailing lists but
>>>>> these are
>>>>> >> at least fairly small.  (And Lars I will write it up in docbook
>>>>> after
>>>>> >> fishing for feedback).
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> My primary aim has been to disturb the existing model as little as
>>>>> >> possible whilst trying to simplify wherever possible.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Attached oldmodel.png shows the participants in the existing model.
>>>>> As
>>>>> >> you can see there are 11 tables in all.  I haven't showed the
>>>>> relations as
>>>>> >> it becomes a bit of a web.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Also attached is a proposed amended database model which bears
>>>>> sufficient
>>>>> >> similarity to the old that migration between the two should be
>>>>> feasible.
>>>>> >> But it is down to 6 tables.  And I have named the tables according
>>>>> to the
>>>>> >> terms we have been discussing.  Of course this is just the database
>>>>> model.
>>>>> >> I've also put together an XML view of what some sample dataset might
>>>>> look
>>>>> >> like.  There is also a UML model required which would be richer than
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> underlying datamodel, but one step at a time ....
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Walking through:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 1.  DataElements can have Dimensions.  And different dataElements
>>>>> can (and
>>>>> >> hopefully will) share some of the same Dimensions.  So there is a
>>>>> m-to-n
>>>>> >> relationship between the two necessitating an extra table
>>>>> >> (DataElementDimensions).  An example of a Dimension is SEX.  Nothing
>>>>> new
>>>>> >> here.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 2.  Dimensions have DimensionElements.  So SEX for example might
>>>>> have
>>>>> >> DimensionElements "Male", "Female", "Unknown".  A big difference
>>>>> from the
>>>>> >> old model is that there is 1-n relationship between
>>>>> DimensionElements and
>>>>> >> Dimensions.  A Dimension has many DimensionElements.  But a
>>>>> DimensionElement
>>>>> >> is a a member of only one Dimension.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 3.  DataValues represent the values at intersection of these
>>>>> Dimensions.
>>>>> >> Keeping with the spirit of the old model this intersection is
>>>>> represented by
>>>>> >> a single key, DimensionElementCombination.  The
>>>>> DimensionElementCombinations
>>>>> >> would be populated when a new Dimension is added to a DataElement.
>>>>> Like the
>>>>> >> original model there is some fragility here.  Changing dimensions on
>>>>> >> dataelements could create a situation where datavalues become
>>>>> orphaned or
>>>>> >> misdirected.  The API must have robust methods for defending this
>>>>> integrity
>>>>> >> particulalrly when updating the structural metadata.  But this is
>>>>> perhaps
>>>>> >> doable.  Either way its not worse than we have.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I haven't given a name to DimensionElementCombinations.  >From the
>>>>> examples
>>>>> >> I have seen from SL this seems to be unnecessary.  The names I have
>>>>> seen
>>>>> >> being used are generally simply contrived from the dimensions or
>>>>> (worse
>>>>> >> still) from the categoryoptions.  What is important is that
>>>>> dataelements can
>>>>> >> have sets of dimensions.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> And then much of what is different is just a renaming of the
>>>>> original
>>>>> >> entities.    From the attached XML file I think you can see some of
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> issues faced re names and identifiers.  I find myself following a
>>>>> sort of
>>>>> >> convention of CODE, Name, Description and UUID.  CODE's must be
>>>>> unique
>>>>> >> within the scope of the database.  I suppose this is close to what
>>>>> we
>>>>> >> currently call ShortName.  I would like to place constraints on
>>>>> CODES in
>>>>> >> terms of length and also the disallowing of spaces and other funny
>>>>> >> characters.  The reason being that we may well have to use these
>>>>> codes in
>>>>> >> making up uri's.  So CODES must be unique.  For the moment we could
>>>>> keep
>>>>> >> name unique but should migrate from it.  Its a matter of rewriting
>>>>> all our
>>>>> >> comparators I guess.  UUIDs I am told are unique through some sort
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> divinity so we apparently do not need to worry about them :-)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I've also tried to reduce the number of knees on the donkey - from
>>>>> 11
>>>>> >> tables to 6.  I believe this can be done whilst preserving the
>>>>> existing
>>>>> >> functionality.  This arangement would make it much more sensible to
>>>>> produce
>>>>> >> the XML I need to produce.  I'm hoping that it would also be more
>>>>> friendly
>>>>> >> to those who would be trying to pivot the data across dimensions.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Jason do you think this works for you?  I might have missed out
>>>>> something
>>>>> >> really fundamental.  Abyot, you've been through this process before
>>>>> - am I
>>>>> >> missing something?  From the DataValue you can see
>>>>> DimensionElements.  And
>>>>> >> once you know a DimensionElement you also know the Dimension to
>>>>> which it
>>>>> >> belongs.  I think thats queryable.  Will have to hydrate with some
>>>>> data and
>>>>> >> see.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Shaking the multidimensional model up like this would obviously have
>>>>> >> implications.  But I suspect most of it is taking stuff away rather
>>>>> than
>>>>> >> adding new so it might just be doable.  Less is more.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Not spending time with docbook yet, till I get some feedback.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Cheers
>>>>> >> Bob
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 2009/9/29 Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Hi
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On the back of Jason and others comments, I've reached the
>>>>> conclusion
>>>>> >>> that we cannot really live with the MD model the way it is.
>>>>> Whereas I think
>>>>> >>> it is (just about) workable there are some serious optimizations we
>>>>> can and
>>>>> >>> should do.  I am going to put my other work back a day or two and
>>>>> propose
>>>>> >>> some changes in a branch.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I think central to the inefficiency is the many-many relation
>>>>> between
>>>>> >>> categories and categoryoptions.  This strikes me as illogical as
>>>>> well as
>>>>> >>> being cumbersome in the UI.  Do we really want to be able to make
>>>>> categories
>>>>> >>> with options like {'0<5','6-10','Male','Out of stock','35-40'}.
>>>>> Reducing
>>>>> >>> the relation between categories and category options to 1-n cuts
>>>>> two tables,
>>>>> >>> should make sql queries more efficient and grokkable and also
>>>>> matches other
>>>>> >>> models such as sdmx better.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The other possiible inefficiency is the dimensionset.  It can be
>>>>> useful
>>>>> >>> in some contexts but I'm guessing that when querying the data
>>>>> (which we want
>>>>> >>> to be fast) it is not relevant.  A dataelement can have
>>>>> dimensions.  The
>>>>> >>> fact that some dataelements have the same combinations of
>>>>> dimensions is very
>>>>> >>> useful to know for some purposes, but it should be possible to get
>>>>> from the
>>>>> >>> dataelement to the dimension directly.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On the other side of the road is the hierarchical dimensionality
>>>>> idea I
>>>>> >>> see Ola and Jason have been discussing, where dimensions are
>>>>> composed
>>>>> >>> (perhaps post-facto) of uni-dimensional dataelements rather than
>>>>> decomposed
>>>>> >>> into pre-structured dimensional elements.  I suspect that:
>>>>> >>> 1.  we need both; and
>>>>> >>> 2.  from the API, user and reporting perspective they should look
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>> same (ie a dataelement can have dimensions - how they come about
>>>>> should not
>>>>> >>> be a concern at the end point).
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I'll try out some of these ideas and point you to the branch.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Regards
>>>>> >>> Bob
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> 2009/9/29 Lars Helge Øverland <larshelge@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the explanations Jason. The multidimensional model is
>>>>> quite
>>>>> >>>>> complicated, is poorly documented, and as you say is DHIS-centric
>>>>> in the way
>>>>> >>>>> that it is built around the DHIS notion of a Data Element.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Could we assemble and put some of the text being written on the
>>>>> list to
>>>>> >>>> docbook?
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> That said, and I think Jason already has made a strong case for
>>>>> this,
>>>>> >>>>> also in a 100% DHIS2 scenario you will need more flexibility in
>>>>> defining
>>>>> >>>>> dimensions to your data than what categories can provide. Being
>>>>> able to
>>>>> >>>>> define data dimensions independent of data collection is powerful
>>>>> and should
>>>>> >>>>> be supported in a better way than what data element groups
>>>>> provide today.
>>>>> >>>>> Given that we already have the orgunit group set code in place I
>>>>> would
>>>>> >>>>> assume that adding group sets to data elements could be a
>>>>> relatively
>>>>> >>>>> straight forward thing to do (but then again, I am not the
>>>>> programmer...).
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I don't see any implications in adding this to the system, it
>>>>> won't
>>>>> >>>> require changes to the existing model as the association goes from
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>>> groupset to the groups. We can prioritize this for the 2.0.3
>>>>> release.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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-- 
Cheers,
Knut Staring