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Re: "I'm Quitting": we both overreacted


I agree with you, and I think elementary needs to continue improving
things in this area. I would, however, like to dispel a myth you set
forth in your email: Ubuntu has many secrets and dark-room-decisions,
trust me. That doesn't mean that we should at all, just pointing out
the error.

Allen Lowe

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Andre Luis dos Santos
<andre_luis_13@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> IMHO, Sergey tried to kill a rabbit (no pun intented) and shot other. (I
> think this only make sense in Portuguese...) When we started discussing the
> web page mockup we stumbled upon a more important issue: the decision-make
> process of elementary.
> I don't think is doable everybody voting things up. But I, IMHO, think we
> should have a more representative council. When we make a decision, we
> should have input from all the teams: the developers, designers, community
> representats and even translators. We, not only as elementary, but as Linux
> are a Community. If we start to do things as a strict hierarchy we'll lose
> the spirit of Linux.
> Even quietly, I ever hated this "it's a secret" thing that the Council likes
> to do. Why the Council has to do things so secretly? Why important things
> like Kickstarter have to be done in a dark room with no one around? Should't
> we be a community where everybody is a important part of the process?
> Really, I'm not saying we should have input from every single member of
> elementary Community, but we should do things more clearly. With the teams
> we have a group of members that discuss how the things will be done, and a
> manager of the team that has the final say. Why couldn't the Council be like
> that? With a representative of all teams, and Dan as the "good dictator"?
> We, as elementary, aren't following the Linux. Not the "free as free beer"
> aspect, but the openess aspect. We should do things as a whole group, not as
> a all mighty council and a bunch of lackeys that have to follow orders.
> I think Sergey is right. We, as developers, designers, translators or simply
> users, should have a voice in elementary decision make process. And every
> single step we take should be in a clear and open environment, where anyone
> could follow the process and where no secrets exist. I only follow this
> elementary community and Ubuntu community, but Ubuntu guys really show the
> things they do. You can see every step of every project they make, and no
> secrets or dark-room-decisions are allowed.
> As a FOSS community, we know that things don't fall from heaven. We have to
> eat, pay the taxes and take care of our families. But when we take a role in
> a FOSS community we are dedicating our free time to it. Payrolls don't
> matter, but how can we dedicate a part of our lives to a project we don't
> even know what direction it goes to? In my humble opinion as just a user and
> member of elementary Community, this, and not donations or web pages, is
> asking to much from us.
> Andre Santos
> Em 03-07-2012 16:07, Cassidy James escreveu:
>> A decision that affects developers greatly was made without them even
>> knowing, left alone being able to influence the decision.
> To be honest, the exact details of how we present the iso download on our
> front page doesn't greatly effect developers. elementary is and always has
> been open source; by its very nature that means its freely available to all.
> Design decisions and decisions on how to bring money in to pay for our
> expenses don't and should not have to be run by every developer. This is the
> reason for having a small Council who can make those decisions.
>> Is that the intended decision-making process or a mistake from which the
>> Council is willing to learn is what I'd like to know
> Again, there's a reason we have a small Council who is able to make
> organizational, design, and monetary decisions. It is not intended to run
> every single decision past Сергей Давыдов before making it. Obviously we're
> always open to learning; if the home page design doesn't work out, of course
> we'll consider alternatives.
> If you or anyone else has any further specific issues you'd like to raise,
> the Council is reachable at council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Give a little bit of
> time for a response if you do mail us there; as Daniel mentioned, we're busy
> both with and outside of elementary. But we do try and respond to any mails
> at one point or another.
> Regards,
> Cassidy James
> On Jul 3, 2012 1:07 PM, "Daniel Foré" <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> As it turns out, we have families and lives and jobs and responsibilities
>> outside of elementary. That means that we're not always able to meet every
>> week and discuss every issue.
>> In my personal opinion, this is a web design issue and not something that
>> needs to be run through you first for approval. But I'd be interested to
>> find out from other people why they think we need to directly democratize
>> our web design or any design for that matter.
>> If you're upset because you can't get your demands met on a certain time
>> schedule I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you. You may not be aware,
>> but this week celebrates our independence in the US. So there's a lot of
>> family flooding in and I'm super busy juggling my very extended family. I
>> can guarantee I won't be able to make the meeting again this Saturday
>> because it's also my mother's birthday.
>> I wish you luck in your next endeavor and hope you don't harbor any ill
>> will towards elementary. You're always welcome back at any time.
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Сергей Давыдов <shnatsel@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Okay, it's been a week. In addition, a Council meeting should have
>>> taken place three days ago. This seems to be quite enough time to
>>> settle on something and write a reply.
>>> To speed up the discussion, I stop pretending that everything is all
>>> right and cease any work on elementary till I receive an answer to my
>>> question.
>>> --
>>> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Daniel Foré
>> elementaryos.org
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